Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
andymadmak said:
Our resident doctors are strangely silent on this one...
Of course they are. As soon as the BMA reached the agreement they showed their true colours anyway - they suddenly forgot all about patient safety and saving the NHS and were only moaning that the pay terms were worse than offered before!Digga said:
NailedOn said:
If the BMA was called what it is, the Doctors Trade Union, then there would be less surprise about its actions.
Would this be the same BMA who was opposed to the formation of a 'free at the point of use' health service in the first place? 
itis interesting that all clinicians other than doctors and dentists are covered by the agenda for change pay scales ... i wonder why the medical / dental professions aren/t ? ( aside from the average weekly hours issue) might it be that their roles wouldn;t actually evaluate to the level of pay they get ( i.e. the work of Medical / Dental staff is valued differently to that of other health professionals - different tray of tin of worms as to whom is paid the correct amount per hour for that work)
I am not a Doctor but my Daughter is. The BMA have yet to send out the full details of the deal they have recommended to their members. Once they have done so they can make a measured decision.
This "leak" has not yet to my knowledge been authenticated in any way, which is why the main stream and the DOH have not said anything.
Now if this was all about money why are they recommending accepting a cost negative solution? none of the Dr's are any better off from what has been agreed from first reports.
The magazine is probably not impartial so I will wait until the source is verified.
This "leak" has not yet to my knowledge been authenticated in any way, which is why the main stream and the DOH have not said anything.
Now if this was all about money why are they recommending accepting a cost negative solution? none of the Dr's are any better off from what has been agreed from first reports.
The magazine is probably not impartial so I will wait until the source is verified.
spaximus said:
I am not a Doctor but my Daughter is. The BMA have yet to send out the full details of the deal they have recommended to their members. Once they have done so they can make a measured decision.
This "leak" has not yet to my knowledge been authenticated in any way, which is why the main stream and the DOH have not said anything.
Now if this was all about money why are they recommending accepting a cost negative solution? none of the Dr's are any better off from what has been agreed from first reports.
The magazine is probably not impartial so I will wait until the source is verified.
Inconveniently, it's in all of the "main stream".This "leak" has not yet to my knowledge been authenticated in any way, which is why the main stream and the DOH have not said anything.
Now if this was all about money why are they recommending accepting a cost negative solution? none of the Dr's are any better off from what has been agreed from first reports.
The magazine is probably not impartial so I will wait until the source is verified.
whoami said:
Inconveniently, it's in all of the "main stream".
I cannot see it on the BBC for example and there has been no statement from Hunt or the DOH. As I said when the validity of the alleged emails then we can see what the context is.I don't think the BMA has over played their hand and again the full details have still to be sent to the members.
It is complicated certainly regarding the speciality requirement for weekend working so it is still unclear how mouch worse off my daughter will be, but unbelievable to many money was not the main issue for her.
BlackLabel said:
Will GPs be next?
NHS crisis: After junior doctors, now GPs vote for ballot on taking strike action
GPs to vote on strike action as they say patients should trouble them less
'GP's say patients should trouble them less' - seriously? You chose to become a GP, you should have known what comes with the territory. It was never a 9 to 5 job, and it's always been difficult. No-one held a gun to your head and put your career down that path and no-one is holding one to your head and keeping you in that job if you hate it so much.NHS crisis: After junior doctors, now GPs vote for ballot on taking strike action
GPs to vote on strike action as they say patients should trouble them less
The rot started with the last round of contracts and it look like it's only got worse since.
williamp said:
So it is all about pay, not about patient safety?
“The more I think about it the more I love our plan. Basically five weeks of headlines about juniors strikes through January and February.”
Reading this and the rest of what the BNA execs said I cant help thinking its ordinary members (and the public) have been played
Played by who? You think the government is any different? How naive.“The more I think about it the more I love our plan. Basically five weeks of headlines about juniors strikes through January and February.”
Reading this and the rest of what the BNA execs said I cant help thinking its ordinary members (and the public) have been played
I think this is a poor attempt at a smear. Pay has always been an issue, it's always been on the agenda. But it's never been the only thing on the agenda, but I'm sure it's easy to make that impression when you pick and choose lines from over 6 months of a WattsApp chat.
Evanivitch said:
williamp said:
So it is all about pay, not about patient safety?
“The more I think about it the more I love our plan. Basically five weeks of headlines about juniors strikes through January and February.”
Reading this and the rest of what the BNA execs said I cant help thinking its ordinary members (and the public) have been played
Played by who? You think the government is any different? How naive.“The more I think about it the more I love our plan. Basically five weeks of headlines about juniors strikes through January and February.”
Reading this and the rest of what the BNA execs said I cant help thinking its ordinary members (and the public) have been played
I think this is a poor attempt at a smear. Pay has always been an issue, it's always been on the agenda. But it's never been the only thing on the agenda, but I'm sure it's easy to make that impression when you pick and choose lines from over 6 months of a WattsApp chat.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/26/bm...
Cant imagine the Guardian picking and choosing those quotes from 6 months of chat. Maybe it really is a story??
Jonesy23 said:
'GP's say patients should trouble them less' - seriously? You chose to become a GP, you should have known what comes with the territory. It was never a 9 to 5 job, and it's always been difficult. No-one held a gun to your head and put your career down that path and no-one is holding one to your head and keeping you in that job if you hate it so much.
The rot started with the last round of contracts and it look like it's only got worse since.
A huge amount of what GPs do in clinic are telling people they do not need antibiotics as the vast majority of people they see are not that ill. If they were paying a fee every time they went they would do basic health checks first.The rot started with the last round of contracts and it look like it's only got worse since.
Many mothers are now some uneducated in health issues and frightened by stories in the press that they run up to the surgery if their child has a sniffle. A dose of calpol and they are fine, but instead they take up valuable appointments.
Trying to get people to self medicate using the pharmacy services is a good idea and frees then to offer appointments quicker to genuine needy.
The NHS is underfunded and with the influx of thousands of immigrants, 300000 net last year where are all these legal immigrants getting primary health care? Gps and there is no more of them or A&E and there is less of them.
I do not blame the GPs for being unhappy and all this b
ks about they knew the work before they took it up, that is true but the workload and the changes being demanded is not fair or safe. When they make a mistake because they only have 5 mins to see each patient it is always the Drs faultspaximus said:
I do not blame the GPs for being unhappy and all this bks about they knew the work before they took it up, that is true but the workload and the changes being demanded is not fair or safe. When they make a mistake because they only have 5 mins to see each patient it is always the Drs fault
Yes indeed change happens but as the post to which you replied to pointed out, there's nothing compulsory about remaining as a GP. ks about they knew the work before they took it up, that is true but the workload and the changes being demanded is not fair or safe. When they make a mistake because they only have 5 mins to see each patient it is always the Drs faultThe idea that those affected by change might somehow have or be granted the power to resist change is unreal.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Of course they are. As soon as the BMA reached the agreement they showed their true colours anyway - they suddenly forgot all about patient safety and saving the NHS and were only moaning that the pay terms were worse than offered before!
150,000 Operations cancelled. For what? A bit of ego and a lot of subterfuge. These are real people with real illnesses.I think 150,000 Apology letters are in order.
Jockman said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Of course they are. As soon as the BMA reached the agreement they showed their true colours anyway - they suddenly forgot all about patient safety and saving the NHS and were only moaning that the pay terms were worse than offered before!
150,000 Operations cancelled. For what? A bit of ego and a lot of subterfuge. These are real people with real illnesses.I think 150,000 Apology letters are in order.
turbobloke said:
Yes indeed change happens but as the post to which you replied to pointed out, there's nothing compulsory about remaining as a GP.
The idea that those affected by change might somehow have or be granted the power to resist change is unreal.
I have no problem with facing change and I am sure that many GP's have embraced some of the changes they have seen as a benefit. What is happening now is we have massive shortage of GP's as well as most other medical staff and yet here we go with changes which will lead to some of the GP's taking early retirement and making the situation worse. The idea that those affected by change might somehow have or be granted the power to resist change is unreal.
It is a bad general who beats his force into a pulp then expects them to perform to a high standard afterwards. Hunt has done that with the JD's and is now starting on the GP's, next the consultants and so on.
we cannot ignore the facts that extra people need extra resource. The Government quite rightly say that they spend more money on the NHS year on year, but when you take in inflation, growing need they never put enough in to stand still let alone move forward.
I have never seen so many unhappy workers as there are in the NHS and that includes the back office staff whose workload is also increasing, some may say to a normal level, but to them it is still more being asked.
Sooner or later a politician is going to be brave enough to tell the truth. And that is that we cannot afford the NHS in its current format. Choices will have to be made.
I know that some will immediately pop up and say " well if we spent X% of GDP like Z country it would be enough" But I don't believe that logic. It will never be enough and certainly could never be enough so long as our population continues to grow at the rate that it is currently.
I am not blaming migrants per se, but it would be naive to ignore the impact on already stretched services of 300,000 new people in a single year, even if those people hardly ever use the NHS (as is frequently claimed) But that is not the only factor:
Even if we eliminated all the waste (and there is a lot) and even if we organised things better (and there is significant scope for this)
and even if we tried to better educate the population as to when it was sensible / appropriate to seek care at GP or A&E ( we all know some of the nonsense that goes on in this respect)
and even if we added 50% to the budget, there would come a point within just a very few years that it would STILL not be enough.
The NHS is a voracious consumer of resources (including people) because that is at the heart of its culture these days. Everyone expects to be treated for everything, regardless of cost or likely outcomes. And of course because it is all free at the point of delivery many people simply do not value the care they receive and/or simply abuse the system.
Every time this culture is challenged in the slightest way the politicians and the media are out with their emotive language and hyperbole to "defend our NHS".
Well, like fighting for peace, or shagging for virginity, the victories being "won" in that defence will one day be seen to be Pyrrhic
I know that some will immediately pop up and say " well if we spent X% of GDP like Z country it would be enough" But I don't believe that logic. It will never be enough and certainly could never be enough so long as our population continues to grow at the rate that it is currently.
I am not blaming migrants per se, but it would be naive to ignore the impact on already stretched services of 300,000 new people in a single year, even if those people hardly ever use the NHS (as is frequently claimed) But that is not the only factor:
Even if we eliminated all the waste (and there is a lot) and even if we organised things better (and there is significant scope for this)
and even if we tried to better educate the population as to when it was sensible / appropriate to seek care at GP or A&E ( we all know some of the nonsense that goes on in this respect)
and even if we added 50% to the budget, there would come a point within just a very few years that it would STILL not be enough.
The NHS is a voracious consumer of resources (including people) because that is at the heart of its culture these days. Everyone expects to be treated for everything, regardless of cost or likely outcomes. And of course because it is all free at the point of delivery many people simply do not value the care they receive and/or simply abuse the system.
Every time this culture is challenged in the slightest way the politicians and the media are out with their emotive language and hyperbole to "defend our NHS".
Well, like fighting for peace, or shagging for virginity, the victories being "won" in that defence will one day be seen to be Pyrrhic
Agreed. Put a drinks machine on free vend in one of the waiting areas and you'll see one type of reaction. Turn it back to 50p and you'll see another reaction.
It's ok saying we will inflation proof rises in spending when Healthcare inflation is nearly 10x that of general inflation.
Then we get on to population increases....
The model is unsustainable. Driving professionals to early retirement simply exacerbates the issue.
It's ok saying we will inflation proof rises in spending when Healthcare inflation is nearly 10x that of general inflation.
Then we get on to population increases....
The model is unsustainable. Driving professionals to early retirement simply exacerbates the issue.
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