Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[spaximus]

To be honest every Dr, be it GP or hospital are up in arms about the way things are going. There are vacancies everywhere for GP's as some retire there is a huge problem to recruit replacements especially in inner cities or some of the bigger towns in the North.

In hospitals there are 5000 Dr vacancies according to some reports. This is being made worse by the hemorrhaging of Dr's to other countries. From my Daughters year at Warwick Med School, she has just finished her F2 staring her speciality, 10 have already left to work in New Zealand or Australia. If you multiply that across all med schools the problem will get worse.

And this is before they start on the consultants and new GP contracts that are in the wings.

Nurses bursaries removed now so where are those coming from as well. There is a perfect storm coming which one way or another is going to be bitterly fought

[Leroy902]

spaximus said:

To be honest every Dr, be it GP or hospital are up in arms about the way things are going. There are vacancies everywhere for GP's as some retire there is a huge problem to recruit replacements especially in inner cities or some of the bigger towns in the North.

In hospitals there are 5000 Dr vacancies according to some reports. This is being made worse by the hemorrhaging of Dr's to other countries. From my Daughters year at Warwick Med School, she has just finished her F2 staring her speciality, 10 have already left to work in New Zealand or Australia. If you multiply that across all med schools the problem will get worse.

And this is before they start on the consultants and new GP contracts that are in the wings.

Nurses bursaries removed now so where are those coming from as well. There is a perfect storm coming which one way or another is going to be bitterly fought

Your daughter, aswel as any others training to be a junior doctor/should be either made to work in the UK for a set time, or if they insist on leaving, paying any sort of funding/grants/loans they received for their way up since leaving school before being allowed to work abroad.

Edited by Leroy902 on Wednesday 31st August 18:59

[spaximus]

Leroy902 said:

spaximus said:

To be honest every Dr, be it GP or hospital are up in arms about the way things are going. There are vacancies everywhere for GP's as some retire there is a huge problem to recruit replacements especially in inner cities or some of the bigger towns in the North.

In hospitals there are 5000 Dr vacancies according to some reports. This is being made worse by the hemorrhaging of Dr's to other countries. From my Daughters year at Warwick Med School, she has just finished her F2 staring her speciality, 10 have already left to work in New Zealand or Australia. If you multiply that across all med schools the problem will get worse.

And this is before they start on the consultants and new GP contracts that are in the wings.

Nurses bursaries removed now so where are those coming from as well. There is a perfect storm coming which one way or another is going to be bitterly fought

Your daughter, aswel as any others training to be a junior doctor/should be either made to work in the UK for a set time, or if they insist on leaving, paying any sort of funding/grants/loans they received for their way up since leaving school before being allowed to work abroad.

Edited by Leroy902 on Wednesday 31st August 18:59

Well my daughter is not leaving but to be honest with the workload she does and the package on offer abroad, I would not blame her. For your other point, how long would you suggest bearing in mind they pay for a huge amount already and are working in hospitals whilst training at med school. She has already done two years working as a JD and due to the start salary has already paid a chunk of her student loan back, unlike the hundreds of thousands other graduates who are still looking for their 2/2 in media studies to get them out of waiting on tables.

So how long, or would it not be better to make a health service a place Dr's want to work? Slavery has never produced the best results and making them work for say 5 years only puts off them leaving it does not stop it.

Not all dr's are perfect, some are greedy no doubt, but those I know, not just her friends are seriously concerned with how the NHS is being set up to fail and scapegoats lined up.

Edited by spaximus on Wednesday 31st August 19:24

[Tryke3]

spaximus said:

Leroy902 said:

spaximus said:

To be honest every Dr, be it GP or hospital are up in arms about the way things are going. There are vacancies everywhere for GP's as some retire there is a huge problem to recruit replacements especially in inner cities or some of the bigger towns in the North.

In hospitals there are 5000 Dr vacancies according to some reports. This is being made worse by the hemorrhaging of Dr's to other countries. From my Daughters year at Warwick Med School, she has just finished her F2 staring her speciality, 10 have already left to work in New Zealand or Australia. If you multiply that across all med schools the problem will get worse.

And this is before they start on the consultants and new GP contracts that are in the wings.

Nurses bursaries removed now so where are those coming from as well. There is a perfect storm coming which one way or another is going to be bitterly fought

Your daughter, aswel as any others training to be a junior doctor/should be either made to work in the UK for a set time, or if they insist on leaving, paying any sort of funding/grants/loans they received for their way up since leaving school before being allowed to work abroad.

Edited by Leroy902 on Wednesday 31st August 18:59

Well my daughter is not leaving but to be honest with the workload she does and the package on offer abroad, I would not blame her. For your other point, how long would you suggest bearing in mind they pay for a huge amount already and are working in hospitals whilst training at med school. She has already done two years working as a JD and due to the start salary has already paid a chunk of her student loan back, unlike the hundreds of thousands other graduates who are still looking for their 2/2 in media studies to get them out of waiting on tables.

So how long, or would it not be better to make a health service a place Dr's want to work? Slavery has never produced the best results and making them work for say 5 years only puts off them leaving it does not stop it.

Not all dr's are perfect, some are greedy no doubt, but those I know, not just her friends are seriously concerned with how the NHS is being set up to fail and scapegoats lined up.

Edited by spaximus on Wednesday 31st August 19:24

Dont bite, trolls are everywhere. I wonder if he adheres to the advice he gives out or like everyone else just a case of do as say not as i do ?

[prg1]

Leroy902 said:

Your daughter, aswel as any others training to be a junior doctor/should be either made to work in the UK for a set time, or if they insist on leaving, paying any sort of funding/grants/loans they received for their way up since leaving school before being allowed to work abroad.

Edited by Leroy902 on Wednesday 31st August 18:59

I

Why should medics have to pay up for not working in the state system after qualification.
I may be wrong but I can't think of any other degrees where people have to provide work for the state after qualification.

[Evanivitch]

You can't enforce a debt abroad. Not even the Student Loans company will chase income from graduates that move abroad.

prg1 said:

I

Why should medics have to pay up for not working in the state system after qualification.
I may be wrong but I can't think of any other degrees where people have to provide work for the state after qualification.

Sponsored Armed Forces personnel are required to repay money if they leave early.

It's not uncommon for people in the private sector to have to repay if they have been sponsored through degrees and then choose to leave early.

[dmsims]

"Meanwhile, in the antipodes, New Zealand are offering their junior doctors free food, free accommodation, a salary in their final student year, payment for all training courses, and cross-cover for all leave.

Please tell me, how do you think 'less pay for working more weekends and more nights, and bugger the women and part-timers' can compete with these terms?"

[Jonesy23]

dmsims said:

"Meanwhile, in the antipodes, New Zealand are offering their junior doctors free food, free accommodation, a salary in their final student year, payment for all training courses, and cross-cover for all leave.

Please tell me, how do you think 'less pay for working more weekends and more nights, and bugger the women and part-timers' can compete with these terms?"

Now ask yourself why they need the incentives.

Though I'm sure there are must be a whole fraction of a percent of doctors who might actually consider moving to the other side of the world to find out what a great experience they wouldn't be having and exactly why the bribes are being offered.

[968]

Jonesy23 said:

Now ask yourself why they need the incentives.

Though I'm sure there are must be a whole fraction of a percent of doctors who might actually consider moving to the other side of the world to find out what a great experience they wouldn't be having and exactly why the bribes are being offered.

You'll find its many thousand of them that are planning to leave and the incentives are called working conditions. They've got great working conditions because they had a number of strikes some time ago when's similarly stupid govt tried to impose ridiculous working practices which were unsafe. NZ is a great place to work and live, and I have many colleagues who've left for there over the years and have never looked back and having visited there, I can see why.

[ucb]

The other,and I think more important, aspect is the number of these doctors deciding not to continue training and leave medicine. The fill rates for training programs have been suppressed this year although I have been told our regional speciality rate is 46%.

[Jonesy23]

Having seen Ellen McCourt in action you'd never have guessed she was a militant lefty.

Now she's front and centre instead of just doing interviews pretending to be an ordinary junior doctor it can only enhance the BMA's campaign; everyone always finds that classic 'unhappy union leader' expression really strengthens their support for a strike.

[krallicious]

Evanivitch said:

You can't enforce a debt abroad. Not even the Student Loans company will chase income from graduates that move abroad.

Wrong.

[Evanivitch]

krallicious said:

Wrong.

Please feelfree to correct me. I was even told by the loans advisor that living abroad for 30 years would see your debt wiped clean.

What's changed since? Is it an EU only deal? Is it a debt that meets a legal threshold to be perused abroad?

[krallicious]

valiant said:

If it's the same as normal student finance, it is written off after 30 years regardless of where you reside.

Your original post assumes that the finance company can't chase you if you leave the country before the 30 years

It depends when and where the loan was taken out.

It can be written off after 25 or 35 years or when you are 65 years old.

When moving abroad, you have to fill in overseas assessment forms.

I'm sure if you just left the country and moved abroad without any forwarding address then it would be very hard for the Loan Company to find you as they are are more lax than the DVLA when it comes to paperwork.

[hairykrishna]

Welshbeef said:

Digga said:

Against the backdrop of NHS spending, it looks madness.

That escalation of spend 1997-2008/9 is alarming and of course that excludes the PFI off balance sheet funding....

It's not that alarming when you compare how much we spend to many other countries;



Despite all of the whinging about how much we spend on the NHS if you look at the outcomes data vs cost we do ok. Not amazing, but ok. To improve we need to spend more on capital heavy stuff like radiotherapy to improve our cancer statistics and, probably more importantly, we need more doctors per head of population. I don't see how giving junior doctors a crap deal helps.

[sidicks]

hairykrishna said:

It's not that alarming when you compare how much we spend to many other countries;



Despite all of the whinging about how much we spend on the NHS if you look at the outcomes data vs cost we do ok. Not amazing, but ok. To improve we need to spend more on capital heavy stuff like radiotherapy to improve our cancer statistics and, probably more importantly, we need more doctors per head of population. I don't see how giving junior doctors a crap deal helps.

You need to add pensions costs to that total!

[Digga]

sidicks said:

hairykrishna said:

It's not that alarming when you compare how much we spend to many other countries;



Despite all of the whinging about how much we spend on the NHS if you look at the outcomes data vs cost we do ok. Not amazing, but ok. To improve we need to spend more on capital heavy stuff like radiotherapy to improve our cancer statistics and, probably more importantly, we need more doctors per head of population. I don't see how giving junior doctors a crap deal helps.

You need to add pensions costs to that total!

And PFI.

[jjlynn27]

Evanivitch said:

You can't enforce a debt abroad. Not even the Student Loans company will chase income from graduates that move abroad.

prg1 said:

I

Why should medics have to pay up for not working in the state system after qualification.
I may be wrong but I can't think of any other degrees where people have to provide work for the state after qualification.

Sponsored Armed Forces personnel are required to repay money if they leave early.

It's not uncommon for people in the private sector to have to repay if they have been sponsored through degrees and then choose to leave early.

Junior doctors are not sponsored by NHS. So not sure how 'sponsored armed forces' would be in any way relevant.
The do / don't take loans to pay for studying just like any other student, only they themselves pay more as their courses are longer.

As for private sector, see above.
When jds start to work for NHS, in order to practice, they themselves need to pay for their professional insurance, currently > £600 pa for ST2/ST3. On top of that, they have to pay out of their own pocket for any training AND exams that they need to pass in order to progress.

Most people would be pretty cheesed of if they were asked to pay for their own indemnity insurance while working for a company, not that I've ever heard that any private company is asking employees to stump up for their own insurance.

HTH.

[jjlynn27]

Jonesy23 said:

dmsims said:

"Meanwhile, in the antipodes, New Zealand are offering their junior doctors free food, free accommodation, a salary in their final student year, payment for all training courses, and cross-cover for all leave.

Please tell me, how do you think 'less pay for working more weekends and more nights, and bugger the women and part-timers' can compete with these terms?"

Now ask yourself why they need the incentives.

Though I'm sure there are must be a whole fraction of a percent of doctors who might actually consider moving to the other side of the world to find out what a great experience they wouldn't be having and exactly why the bribes are being offered.

Why NZ offers incentives to their JDs? Good working conditions = bribes? Next time when I move postition/company for better working conditions/more money I'll ask myself, why are they actually offering me bribes.

As for 'great experience they wouldn't be having';

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/im-a-young-bri...

First two google links. From the second one ;

jd now not returning from AUS said:

Currently, I work in a system that requires doctors to do 38 hours a week. For every hour that I work beyond my contract I get paid double with “social hours” being defined as between 8am and 6pm, Monday to Friday. We get a 50 per cent bonus for Saturdays and 100 per cent on Sundays. This is bearing in mind that our basic salary is already higher than the UK equivalent, including their banding supplement –which means my salary as a junior doctor is about the same as a first year consultant in the UK.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

As for 'great experience they wouldn't be having';

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/im-a-young-bri...

First two google links. From the second one ;

jd now not returning from AUS said:

Currently, I work in a system that requires doctors to do 38 hours a week. For every hour that I work beyond my contract I get paid double with “social hours” being defined as between 8am and 6pm, Monday to Friday. We get a 50 per cent bonus for Saturdays and 100 per cent on Sundays. This is bearing in mind that our basic salary is already higher than the UK equivalent, including their banding supplement –which means my salary as a junior doctor is about the same as a first year consultant in the UK.

Lots of comments about remuneration, but very little discussion about the pension entitlement in the NZ scheme - any ideas what this includes?