Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
jjlynn27 said:
Poorly informed compared to you? The guy who posted the link from order-order about doctors salaries. It was you, right?
Why would you do that? Why would you deliberately post the link containing outright lie? Or you can keep dodging that question.
Wow, I posted a link that turned out to be incorrect because I was lazy and didn't review it properly.Why would you do that? Why would you deliberately post the link containing outright lie? Or you can keep dodging that question.
You've mentioned it 3 times recently, so you must feel really clever about it. Congratulations - I guess you don't often manage to feel clever compared to other people on the forum.
I'm glad you're enjoying the feeling.
jjlynn27 said:
It's not 'now' it was there from the start. Do you understand how stupid it is to ask for a source of belief of people that I know?
Do you realise how stupid it is to use anecdotal evidence to make a meaningful point?jjlynn27 said:
You are not educating anyone. People like alpinestars do. You whine. Or you can keep relying on echo chamber of NP&E to agree with you. Still funny (for me).
The evidence would suggest otherwise.jjlynn27 said:
So, the non-contributory pension of 12% of more than double the salary is less than half as generous as the contributory pension on less than half the salary?
When you take into account the size of taxpayer subsidy and the transfer of risks, then certainly less generous. Maybe not 50%.jjlynn27 said:
Really? Or to put it another way, if she decides to put all of the extra money, every penny above her current salary into the pension pot (obviously in addition to 12% of the total) will she have better or worse pension?
I said the pension was much less generous, I never said the overall package was less generous.HTH
jjlynn27 said:
The main question, since you seem to need reminders; Why would you post the link that you knew that contains outright lie? What was the purpose of that. JDs salaries are public info, so, as informed as you are, and posting just about things that you know, why do that?
Have another one
.
And yet another reference to a link posted weeks (months?) ago, irrelevant to the current discussion.Have another one
. You really are obsessed, aren't you?!
Edited by sidicks on Thursday 1st September 20:44
sidicks said:
Wow, I posted a link that turned out to be incorrect because I was lazy and didn't review it properly.
You've mentioned it 3 times recently, so you must feel really clever about it. Congratulations - I guess you don't often manage to feel clever compared to other people on the forum.
I'm glad you're enjoying the feeling.
LOL, You linked the article that said in the title that jds are on three times average salary. How much 'reviewing properly' that needs? Why would I feel clever about you posting idiotic links? What a bizarre conclusion to arrive to. Why would anyone compare themselves to others, especially to people on forums? Is that what you do, and then think that everyone else does the same? Is it just the forums for you, or facebook, twitter and alike, if indeed the comparison is something that you do? You've mentioned it 3 times recently, so you must feel really clever about it. Congratulations - I guess you don't often manage to feel clever compared to other people on the forum.
I'm glad you're enjoying the feeling.
sidicks said:
Do you realise how stupid it is to use anecdotal evidence to make a meaningful point?
So, once again dodging the question. You seem to do that a lot. That part was anecdotal from the start anecdotal and clearly marked as such, I never claimed that I know what doctors in general believe. How is that stupid?
Asking for 'source' of someone telling me what they believe is stupid.
sidicks said:
The evidence would suggest otherwise.
No, there is, however, evidence that you whine on and on about pensions on every single thread about dreaded 'public sector'. sidicks said:
When you take into account the size of taxpayer subsidy and the transfer of risks, then certainly less generous. Maybe not 50%.
sidicks said:
So basically the pension is less than half as generous, and much more risky, than her current scheme (at best).
Which one is it? Does it have to take into account that NHS pension will stay the same? Maybe they believe that;
some pension expert said:
It's not unreasonable for the terms of future accrual to be varied to reflect economic circumstances!
'Comparing to others on forums' bwhahahahahaha. Excellent.
jjlynn27 said:
No, there is, however, evidence that you whine on and on about pensions on every single thread about dreaded 'public sector'.
The evidence from numerous threads is that many public sector workers, don't appreciate the value of the pensions they have, given the ways they try to pretend these schemes are 'in surplus' etc etc.Deny that if you wish.
jjlynn27 said:
Which one is it? Does it have to take into account that NHS pension will stay the same?
Maybe they believe that;
They can believe what they want, whether these people are a) representative and b) well-informed is what is most relevant!Maybe they believe that;
jjlynn27 said:
some pension expert said:
It's not unreasonable for the terms of future accrual to be varied to reflect economic circumstances!
2) Depending on the future economic and demographic environment, it is feasible that future accrual could reduce and yet there would still be increased value (compared to now) of the scheme.
HTH
Evanivitch said:
The cost of training a medic far, far exceeds the tuition fees they pay. And that includes NHS resource such as personnel, facilities and consumables. It's huge. That can easily be changed and become a sponsorship that sees medics having a buy-out clause if they wish to terminate early.
Plenty of professionals take out professional insurance when they are allowed to moonlight freely. Which is what many doctors choose to do.
Many other professions that value continuous professional development also pay for their own training, tools and resources. Otherwise you stall and you fall behind.
Reasonable post. Plenty of professionals take out professional insurance when they are allowed to moonlight freely. Which is what many doctors choose to do.
Many other professions that value continuous professional development also pay for their own training, tools and resources. Otherwise you stall and you fall behind.
Which part of the medical training are you referring to? The Uni part, for which they pay fees like everyone else, well, a lot more, since it takes longer to complete the course, or the part when they start working for the NHS?
About insurance; it's not like for like comparison at all. JDs are required to take professional insurance when they start to work for the NHS. Moonlighting is irrelevant. Do you know any profession or company that asks professionals to pay for the insurance to be able to work for them? I don't.
As for CPD, I'm sure that many people do pay for their CPD courses. I also know that many don't. In my profession all the training costs are paid for by the company. Medics within NHS don't have the choice, they do pay for the courses, for the exams, and they have to pass them to progress to the next level.
jjlynn27 said:
Reasonable post.
Which part of the medical training are you referring to? The Uni part, for which they pay fees like everyone else, well, a lot more, since it takes longer to complete the course, or the part when they start working for the NHS?
About insurance; it's not like for like comparison at all. JDs are required to take professional insurance when they start to work for the NHS. Moonlighting is irrelevant. Do you know any profession or company that asks professionals to pay for the insurance to be able to work for them? I don't.
As for CPD, I'm sure that many people do pay for their CPD courses. I also know that many don't. In my profession all the training costs are paid for by the company. Medics within NHS don't have the choice, they do pay for the courses, for the exams, and they have to pass them to progress to the next level.
Yes and HRMC will not allow any course/exam fees to be set off against tax.
Which part of the medical training are you referring to? The Uni part, for which they pay fees like everyone else, well, a lot more, since it takes longer to complete the course, or the part when they start working for the NHS?
About insurance; it's not like for like comparison at all. JDs are required to take professional insurance when they start to work for the NHS. Moonlighting is irrelevant. Do you know any profession or company that asks professionals to pay for the insurance to be able to work for them? I don't.
As for CPD, I'm sure that many people do pay for their CPD courses. I also know that many don't. In my profession all the training costs are paid for by the company. Medics within NHS don't have the choice, they do pay for the courses, for the exams, and they have to pass them to progress to the next level.
Yes and HRMC will not allow any course/exam fees to be set off against tax.
I suspect that most junir doctors are largely unconcerned with regard to future potential benefits that are subject to change. The important aspects appear to be intensity and frequency of work patterns which are widely reported to be significantly better in the other destinations of choice.
sidicks said:
Lots of comments about remuneration, but very little discussion about the pension entitlement in the NZ scheme - any ideas what this includes?
Seems the employers match contributions up to 6%. Scheme is defined contribution.www.nzrda.org.nz/nzrda-member-superannuation-schem...
jjlynn27 said:
Reasonable post.
Which part of the medical training are you referring to? The Uni part, for which they pay fees like everyone else, well, a lot more, since it takes longer to complete the course, or the part when they start working for the NHS?
English medical students pay 1 additional year of fees compared to normal 3 year degrees but then so do students studying for a MEng or other 4 year degrees. Tuition fees for the 5th (and 6th where applicable) year of a medical degree are paid by the NHS - a bursary worth about £9,000. Student Finance England only fund 4 years undergraduate study - allowing 3 years + 1 repeat year.Which part of the medical training are you referring to? The Uni part, for which they pay fees like everyone else, well, a lot more, since it takes longer to complete the course, or the part when they start working for the NHS?
In addition to university, there is the significant cost of providing clinical placements to medical students. The current tariff cost to the NHS is £35k per placement year. This is why the HEFCE still has an intake target for medicine degrees after the cap on student numbers was lifted on other degrees.
jjlynn27 said:
About insurance; it's not like for like comparison at all. JDs are required to take professional insurance when they start to work for the NHS. Moonlighting is irrelevant. Do you know any profession or company that asks professionals to pay for the insurance to be able to work for them? I don't.
Per the Medical Defence Union:"I am an NHS employed doctor. Do I need to have additional indemnity?
If you work for an NHS body (or the HSC in Northern Ireland) the organisation you work for will have NHS indemnity via a clinical negligence scheme. You may however want to consider whether you need additional indemnity for clinical work which isn't included in NHS indemnity, for example providing medico-legal reports and signing cremation certificates. MDU membership also provides access to support with many other medico-legal issues arising from clinical practice that are not covered by NHS indemnity such as attendance at an inquest, a complaint to the GMC or a professional disciplinary or criminal investigation as well as help with media enquiries."
https://www.themdu.com/my-membership/frequently-as...
said:
As for CPD, I'm sure that many people do pay for their CPD courses. I also know that many don't. In my profession all the training costs are paid for by the company. Medics within NHS don't have the choice, they do pay for the courses, for the exams, and they have to pass them to progress to the next level.
A legacy perhaps of the BMA and Medical Royal Colleges negotiating a half-in/half out position for doctors in 1947? Would junior doctors welcome the NHS taking control of which courses and exams they could sit?ucb said:
I suspect that most junir doctors are largely unconcerned with regard to future potential benefits that are subject to change. The important aspects appear to be intensity and frequency of work patterns which are widely reported to be significantly better in the other destinations of choice.
I was thinking about this - if the dispite is partly about work patterns and trying to show that we currently have a 7 day NHS surely it would be appropriate to hold the strikes at weekend to demonstrate the impact of not working then. But maybe there is a reason the BMA chose not to do this.ninja-lewis said:
sidicks said:
Lots of comments about remuneration, but very little discussion about the pension entitlement in the NZ scheme - any ideas what this includes?
Seems the employers match contributions up to 6%. Scheme is defined contribution.www.nzrda.org.nz/nzrda-member-superannuation-schem...
I know very small firms in the UK private sector that offer more than that. Can't be true.
andyps said:
ucb said:
I suspect that most junir doctors are largely unconcerned with regard to future potential benefits that are subject to change. The important aspects appear to be intensity and frequency of work patterns which are widely reported to be significantly better in the other destinations of choice.
I was thinking about this - if the dispite is partly about work patterns and trying to show that we currently have a 7 day NHS surely it would be appropriate to hold the strikes at weekend to demonstrate the impact of not working then. But maybe there is a reason the BMA chose not to do this.At present the consultants cover JDs absence by cancelling/postponing non urgent work, at nights and weekends there are only just adequate consultants on duty for critical work, if they strike at night or weekends then there will be too high a risk to patients.
To the poster that said if they don't go back to work they will have blood on their hands, I would point out that if they do go back to work they will literally have blood on their hands, its what they do and we don't value them despite it.
Jockman said:
ninja-lewis said:
sidicks said:
Lots of comments about remuneration, but very little discussion about the pension entitlement in the NZ scheme - any ideas what this includes?
Seems the employers match contributions up to 6%. Scheme is defined contribution.www.nzrda.org.nz/nzrda-member-superannuation-schem...
I know very small firms in the UK private sector that offer more than that. Can't be true.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...
http://centraltas.co.nz/strategic-workforce-servic...
spaximus said:
Hosenbugler said:
By sheer coincidence, both my daughters in law work in the NHS. One is a staff nurse , the other a junior doctor.
The first by another coincidence, is on maternity leave, the JD will work, as she has in previous strikes. Both feel the entire thing has been stirred up by people who have not got the NHS at heart. The mere fact that the NHS is not a seamless 7 day service, is , to me, astonishing.
I worked for a Utility company back in the latter 90's, and that was a seven day week , any 16 hour working day back then.
Seems like the NHS is still in the dark ages.
You are correct, it has been stirred up by Hunt who has an agenda to make it so bad that people will accept either massive tax increases, or some form of state top up or a completely private system. The first by another coincidence, is on maternity leave, the JD will work, as she has in previous strikes. Both feel the entire thing has been stirred up by people who have not got the NHS at heart. The mere fact that the NHS is not a seamless 7 day service, is , to me, astonishing.
I worked for a Utility company back in the latter 90's, and that was a seven day week , any 16 hour working day back then.
Seems like the NHS is still in the dark ages.
The BMA have been woeful in seeing what was being done and Hunt has had the full machine of Whitehall to make his lies appear truthful. I appreciate your Daughters choice and view but to me she must be special if she can accept a real pay cut and the prospect of being made to work more weekends and night for less money.
No one wants people to suffer but what choice do they have if the Hunt will not allow any further negotiation?
Looking at Hunt today he had the look of fear in his eyes as this dispute will get ugly and you can bet your last pound that the first death he can pin on a lack of Dr's due to strikes they will spin this to high heaven. Ignoring how many deaths the lack of 5000 hospital Dr's and thousands more GP's actually cause due to lack of real investment. Yes spending is up, but they are treating many more people with less staff so spending will rise.
As for any deaths due to strike action, then those who shouldhave been present and prevented such should have the scrutiny of charges for corporate manslaughter. I've long thought that people who strike (in any calling) should be held accountable, both fiscally and physically , for the effects their actions cause to others.
andyps said:
I was thinking about this - if the dispite is partly about work patterns and trying to show that we currently have a 7 day NHS surely it would be appropriate to hold the strikes at weekend to demonstrate the impact of not working then. But maybe there is a reason the BMA chose not to do this.
One of the 5 day strikes runs over a weekendHosenbugler you have a rather strange lack of understanding of what goes on for someone with a family member that works in the NHS.
The lack of 24/7 has nothing to do with JDs. if you go in to a hospital at 3 am on a boxing day morning the person you are most likely to bump in to is a JD.
As to the consequences of striking being laid at the feet of the person that strikes, perhaps you should consider that the employers are equally liable, All Hunt has to do to stop these strikes is withdraw the imposition of the contract. He clearly thinks that war war is better than jaw jaw. This escalation is as a result of him playing brinkmanship.
For those that do not understand the safety concerns of work load put on JDs, my daughter has just ended a rotas of 7 consecutive nights, starting at 8.30 pm and ending at 9.30 am but only once managing to leave the hospital by 11 am. This is more hours in 7 days than a truck driver is allowed to work in 3 weeks, because the trucker might make mistakes if they are tired. The consequences of a JD who can not think straight because of fatigue will be dumped on that doctor by a trust that dos not care.
The lack of 24/7 has nothing to do with JDs. if you go in to a hospital at 3 am on a boxing day morning the person you are most likely to bump in to is a JD.
As to the consequences of striking being laid at the feet of the person that strikes, perhaps you should consider that the employers are equally liable, All Hunt has to do to stop these strikes is withdraw the imposition of the contract. He clearly thinks that war war is better than jaw jaw. This escalation is as a result of him playing brinkmanship.
For those that do not understand the safety concerns of work load put on JDs, my daughter has just ended a rotas of 7 consecutive nights, starting at 8.30 pm and ending at 9.30 am but only once managing to leave the hospital by 11 am. This is more hours in 7 days than a truck driver is allowed to work in 3 weeks, because the trucker might make mistakes if they are tired. The consequences of a JD who can not think straight because of fatigue will be dumped on that doctor by a trust that dos not care.
She works long hours (the JD DIL ) but does not talk about work that much, in fact very little. Son tells me more than she does, he has said she does not and will not strike because she feels its all about self interest and not about the NHS. Staff Nurse DIL is now on maternity leave, but she was really pissed off with the earlier strikes as it made her tricky job harder than it need be.
As for accountability of strikers , it seems other health organisations are very worried concernig the notice given and the length of the strikes themselves , very likely then that they know far more than the average layman to express such worries . From a personal point of view if a relative of mine died because of the deliberate withdrawal of medical care by a "Striker" (because striking is entirely voluntary and premeditated) I would expect to see them in the dock answering for their actions.
As for accountability of strikers , it seems other health organisations are very worried concernig the notice given and the length of the strikes themselves , very likely then that they know far more than the average layman to express such worries . From a personal point of view if a relative of mine died because of the deliberate withdrawal of medical care by a "Striker" (because striking is entirely voluntary and premeditated) I would expect to see them in the dock answering for their actions.
In the last round of strikes my local NHS Trust had consultants filling the gaps so there was probably no better time to be seriously ill tbh so any talk of blood on hands is rather melodramatic
What concerns me is that the bma reached an agreement with the health Secretary earlier this year which it's junior members rejected. For me this is the crux.
Whsts the point of letting your professional union negotiate if you won't accept the outcome?
I was very much behind them up until this point but now sense the tide of public opinion is turning
What concerns me is that the bma reached an agreement with the health Secretary earlier this year which it's junior members rejected. For me this is the crux.
Whsts the point of letting your professional union negotiate if you won't accept the outcome?
I was very much behind them up until this point but now sense the tide of public opinion is turning
glazbagun said:
... there seems to be a well rehearsed process by now of the media initially supporting, then sympathising, then discouraging before actively opposing almost any industrial action that I can think of starting with (in my political memory) the fuel strikes back in 2000.
Judging by the headlines on the front pages of the Heavies this morning (left and right wing), your synopsis could be correct !!Dixy said:
Hosenbugler you have a rather strange lack of understanding of what goes on for someone with a family member that works in the NHS.
The lack of 24/7 has nothing to do with JDs. if you go in to a hospital at 3 am on a boxing day morning the person you are most likely to bump in to is a JD.
As to the consequences of striking being laid at the feet of the person that strikes, perhaps you should consider that the employers are equally liable, All Hunt has to do to stop these strikes is withdraw the imposition of the contract. He clearly thinks that war war is better than jaw jaw. This escalation is as a result of him playing brinkmanship.
For those that do not understand the safety concerns of work load put on JDs, my daughter has just ended a rotas of 7 consecutive nights, starting at 8.30 pm and ending at 9.30 am but only once managing to leave the hospital by 11 am. This is more hours in 7 days than a truck driver is allowed to work in 3 weeks, because the trucker might make mistakes if they are tired. The consequences of a JD who can not think straight because of fatigue will be dumped on that doctor by a trust that dos not care.
He agreed a deal with the BMA and the BMA's membership told them to fThe lack of 24/7 has nothing to do with JDs. if you go in to a hospital at 3 am on a boxing day morning the person you are most likely to bump in to is a JD.
As to the consequences of striking being laid at the feet of the person that strikes, perhaps you should consider that the employers are equally liable, All Hunt has to do to stop these strikes is withdraw the imposition of the contract. He clearly thinks that war war is better than jaw jaw. This escalation is as a result of him playing brinkmanship.
For those that do not understand the safety concerns of work load put on JDs, my daughter has just ended a rotas of 7 consecutive nights, starting at 8.30 pm and ending at 9.30 am but only once managing to leave the hospital by 11 am. This is more hours in 7 days than a truck driver is allowed to work in 3 weeks, because the trucker might make mistakes if they are tired. The consequences of a JD who can not think straight because of fatigue will be dumped on that doctor by a trust that dos not care.
k off.How is that Hunt's fault ?
jjlynn27 said:
Welshbeef said:
The point is that it's a qualification for the state NHS.
Am I concerned about others coming into the UK - no. Frankly the quality of degrees in other countries is not equivalent some notably lower (take Eastern Europe - I visited a hospital there recently it was disgusting and the treatment was shocking). Given we take these "Doctors" I'd not want one of the ones I saw to treat anyone.
Did you visit that hospital in 944 from ebay or was that result of scoffing some '95 Ch Margaux?Am I concerned about others coming into the UK - no. Frankly the quality of degrees in other countries is not equivalent some notably lower (take Eastern Europe - I visited a hospital there recently it was disgusting and the treatment was shocking). Given we take these "Doctors" I'd not want one of the ones I saw to treat anyone.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff