Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
NoddyonNitrous said:
Can you give me some examples as I'm struggling to think of any? I haven't heard of any unlicenced-but-with-medical-qualifications people working in the NHS.
I have heard a (verified) story of two orthopaedic trainees at ST7 level (about to finish their 17-year training and ready to take up consultant posts) who were offered a Porsche and £800k golden hello to go and work for one of the big companies in the City - they accepted the career change This is the market that the NHS is having to compete with.
McKinsey has an open offer for people who poach JDs from NHS. JDs get 2.5-3 times increase in salary + much better pension, for less demanding work. Friend who left NHS couple of months ago, is now actively contacting everyone to try to get them to sign up. I have heard a (verified) story of two orthopaedic trainees at ST7 level (about to finish their 17-year training and ready to take up consultant posts) who were offered a Porsche and £800k golden hello to go and work for one of the big companies in the City - they accepted the career change This is the market that the NHS is having to compete with.
I do love proposals on here to make the profession less appealing. You have situation where you can get enough people to stay in a profession and the solution is to make profession less appealing?
That'll bring results.
One of the things making shortages even worse is that locum doctors use to be classed as self employed and offset a lot of expenses, IR35 has closed the door on this and resulted in a cut in income meaning that many oversees doctors are now returning to their native country making rotas unfillable.
968 said:
turbobloke said:
How many medics anticipate being led up the garden path by a BMA committee?
Or abused by the health secretary on the basis of spurious data into a scandalous contract that is leaving massive gaps in services nationally? I guess many didn't anticipate being criticised be people who know nothing of the actual situation.Because these junior doctors are none of these things, the only explanation by right wingers is that they’ve been deceived by the BMA or by the unions.
Obviously it’s never the fault of the conservative government or the health secretary.
jjlynn27 said:
McKinsey has an open offer for people who poach JDs from NHS. JDs get 2.5-3 times increase in salary + much better pension, for less demanding work. Friend who left NHS couple of months ago, is now actively contacting everyone to try to get them to sign up.
I do love proposals on here to make the profession less appealing. You have situation where you can get enough people to stay in a profession and the solution is to make profession less appealing?
That'll bring results.
Can you provide details of what this pension is that will significantly exceed the gold-plated pension available to NHS staff?I do love proposals on here to make the profession less appealing. You have situation where you can get enough people to stay in a profession and the solution is to make profession less appealing?
That'll bring results.
Jonesy23 said:
spaximus said:
All I can say is that so far out of my daughters year at med school, who qualified 3 years ago, she knows of 15 who have left the NHS. Most have been offered training places in Australia or New Zealand where they can continue their training without the hassle they get here or the excessive hours, regardless of what the new contract claimed would stop.
Hope they've read their new contracts properly and fully understand what they signed up to in exchange for the training.Some people get a bit of a shock.
IANAL but from what I have seen on offer to these people is pretty straight forward with no requirement to pay anything back. Most want to go to the bigger cities but like London there is a lot of home grown want that, but there seems to be no shortage of offers. The usual agents are trying to fill posts there daily
sidicks said:
Can you provide details of what this pension is that will significantly exceed the gold-plated pension available to NHS staff?
One way of shutting up a pension salesman when they make their random phonecalls....I have an NHS pesion..sorry to have troubled you they tell MrsA before hanging up 
sidicks said:
jjlynn27 said:
No. Even if I have them I wouldn't post them on public forum.
So we can probably ignore the claim in that case!Would you post details of your employer and your pension details?
"We"
sidicks said:
Can you provide details of what this pension is that will significantly exceed the gold-plated pension available to NHS staff?
Perhaps you would like to lay out what the NHS pension is in your own words, as having looked at it recently it is certainly not the end of the rainbow it use to be.jjlynn27 said:
You can do whatever you like. Who are you speaking for when you type 'we'?
I'm sure plenty of others will choose to ignore unsubstantiated claims.jjlynn27 said:
Would you post details of your employer and your pension details?
You were the one who was 'boasting' about wages being 2.5-3 times previous levels, which is apparently not confidential, but somehow it would seemingly be entirely inappropriate (according to you) to (even vaguely) quantify the size of this 'more generous' pension.Strange (and inconsistent), but I guess no surprise.
Edited by sidicks on Thursday 10th August 08:07
edh said:
You mean change the terms of the loan agreements retrospectively?
How many of the aspiring medics / teachers etc.. anticipate dropping out when they start their courses & sign up for mountains of debt?
No, I'm not a fan of retrospective legislation generally, though it doesn't stop governments often. How many of the aspiring medics / teachers etc.. anticipate dropping out when they start their courses & sign up for mountains of debt?
If it were me I would make wholesale changes with the funding situation on university/education places. I'd rather see full funding for key qualifications rather than see any sort of subsidy (of which loans are one type when you consider the repayment terms and the expected "default" rate) for anything falling outside of that.
But with that there would need to be some tie in/payback if the individual elects not to use that education here.
I'm sure none go into these things expecting not to follow through. But that doesn't address the holes we need to repair. There are plenty of things in life we do not anticipate doing but that result in penalty.
We need some radical solutions IMO. Both the supply and demand sides of the equation need addressing.
Trouble is, I don't think the general public/people in these key roles/etc are up for material change. So the system cannot improve.
sidicks said:
jjlynn27 said:
You can do whatever you like. Who are you speaking for when you type 'we'?
I'm sure plenty of others will choose to ignore unsubstantiated claims.jjlynn27 said:
Would you post details of your employer and your pension details?
You were the one who was 'boasting' about wages being 2.5-3 times previous levels, which is apparently not confidential, but somehow it would seemingly be entirely inappropriate (according to you) to (even vaguely) quantify the size of this 'more generous' pension.Strange (and inconsistent), but I guess no surprise.
You can chose to ignore whatever you like, or you can go back to getting your info about jds from order-order.
jjlynn27 said:
There was no boasting. There was no inconsistency at all.
Information is from ex-jd who now works for McK after speaking to financial adviser.
What's the justification for quantifying the salary but not (even remotely) quantifying the pension?Information is from ex-jd who now works for McK after speaking to financial adviser.
jjlynn27 said:
You can chose to ignore whatever you like, or you can go back to getting your info about jds from order-order.
Truly pathetic, as ever.The information about NHS pensions is freely available on the appropriate website. Having the expertise to be able to quantify the value of those pensions is less easily acquired...
Edited by sidicks on Thursday 10th August 08:43
sidicks said:
jjlynn27 said:
There was no boasting. There was no inconsistency at all.
Information is from ex-jd who now works for McK after speaking to financial adviser.
What's the justification for quantifying the salary but not (even remotely) quantifying the pension?Information is from ex-jd who now works for McK after speaking to financial adviser.
jjlynn27 said:
You can chose to ignore whatever you like, or you can go back to getting your info about jds from order-order.
Truly pathetic, as ever.The information about NHS pensions is freely available on the appropriate website. Having the expertise to be able to quantify the value of those pensions is less easily acquired...
Edited by sidicks on Thursday 10th August 08:43
The information is passed on exactly as it was given to me. Including salary and pension benefit. Nothing more, nothing less.
What is pathetic is relaying unchecked and unsubstantiated information from order-order. Only one of us did that.
jjlynn27 said:
The 'justification' is the information passed on by someone who actually moved to McK from NHS, as previously stated. Am I not saying this right?
The information is passed on exactly as it was given to me. Including salary and pension benefit. Nothing more, nothing less.
You seem to be placing a lot of faith in unquantified anecdotal evidence!The information is passed on exactly as it was given to me. Including salary and pension benefit. Nothing more, nothing less.
jjlynn27 said:
What is pathetic is relaying unchecked and unsubstantiated information from order-order. Only one of us did that.
What unchecked and unsubstantiated information have I relayed?A direct quote, please...
:hiya:
sidicks said:
Dixy said:
Perhaps you would like to lay out what the NHS pension is in your own words, as having looked at it recently it is certainly not the end of the rainbow it use to be.
Really?What are the significant changes that you've seen made recently?
Countdown said:
Doesn't the change from final salary to CARE count as a "significant change"?
Is that significant in terms of the value of the benefits?Not really when you factor in an increased accrual rate and the very generous rate of revaluation, arguably leading to enhanced benefits for some!
Edited by sidicks on Thursday 10th August 09:28
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