Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[TheEnd]

IanA2 said:

Read my first post and ask yourself if you'd want a loved one treated by a medic who hasn't
seen their bed for three days.

In that pdf linked in the petition, there is this-

4.65 The BMA said that to support safe working hours, contractual safeguards were needed.
NHS Employers provided these in Schedule 3 (Working Hours) in the draft contract,
noting where agreement had or had not been reached with the BMA. They included:
• a 72 hours limit on the number of hours that could be worked in a single seven-day
period (agreed);
• no shift to exceed 13 hours (agreed);


followed by-

Recommendation 17. The wording on contractual safeguards in Schedule 3 of the draft contract should be strengthened to a mandatory requirement to comply with the requirements of the Working Time Regulations or any successor legislation.


so isn't that something you wanted?

[FredericRobinson]

Mortality rates will always be higher for people admitted at weekends than during the week, routine admissions are during the week, weekend admissions are far more likely to be emergencies.

Why don't MP's negotiate their contracts individually?

[jjlynn27]

sidicks said:

Nonsense like this doesn't help your case.

If you were slightly smarter, you'd realise that it's your case. But it's 'public workers, innit'.

[Stevanos]

I just started looking in to this a little more, whilst I also have no axe to grind it does seem some form of rationalisation is needed. The table below is taken from Wikipedia and shows the NHS in the top 10 employers in the World! How can that be the actual need for a population much much smaller than most of the other examples. It is no wonder the whole organisation is in chaos. Perhaps Hunt is right to start cutting it back aggressively so it can then be rebuilt on what is actually needed in 2015 and beyond? That would appear the only way to tame the beast and fix it.

UK population 64 million
NHS staff 1.7 million





Also see the extra 300,000 staff added since the Conservatives have had their hands on it?

[jjlynn27]

Stevanos said:

I just started looking in to this a little more, whilst I also have no axe to grind it does seem some form of rationalisation is needed. The table below is taken from Wikipedia and shows the NHS in the top 10 employers in the World! How can that be the actual need for a population much much smaller than most of the other examples. It is no wonder the whole organisation is in chaos. Perhaps Hunt is right to start cutting it back aggressively so it can then be rebuilt on what is actually needed in 2015 and beyond? That would appear the only way to tame the beast and fix it.

UK population 64 million
NHS staff 1.7 million

So with waiting times targets being missed mostly due to lack of staff, and one of the lowest costs per capita, you think that solution is to cut it back aggressively?

[CubanPete]

It was brown who started privatisation of the NHS through PFI, not jeremy hunt.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

If you were slightly smarter, you'd realise that it's your case.

I'm certainly smart enough to know that the government has no intention of closing the NHS down - perhaps you honestly believe the to the case, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

jjlynn27 said:

But it's 'public workers, innit'.

That's the sort of ignorance i'd expect from you.

[Stevanos]

Employing that many people at a low cost isn't working is it, agreed!

I wonder how many in that number actually see patients and perform actual healthcare?

Does that number include dentists etc also I wonder as they are more or less privatised these days judging by the cost of a fking 5 minute check-up!

[Countdown]

loafer123 said:

You pay them less for weekend overtime and more for weekday hours, so they earn the same.

At least that is what the Health Secretary said this morning.

Sounds a little bit like what happened with GPs and out of hours cover.... wonder how that turned out?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3200451/...

[spaximus]

It is easy for those who do not understand the way the NHS works to make assumptions that are incorrect.
Hunt does not want to close the NHS down but he wants to do everything on the cheap and has tried switching the blame from Greedy GP's who will not offer out of hours care, to Greedy Junior Doctors now.
The reality is simple, we restrict Lorry drivers as they can make mistakes due to fatigue but Junior Doctors can and do work longer hours. They claim that this will mean more on at weekends is a myth. There will be the same number paid much less.
It is complicated as they get a base salary, then a banding then hours that are worked unsocial extra. This is fair to everyone and as someone else commented, it takes a lot to get Doctors to take action but Hunt has done this this time and this will be one that will force Doctors to strike. If every Doctor just worked their contracted hours now, the NHS will grind to a halt now and waiting lists will just increase to years.
The sad thing is many of the people who think Doctors are in the wrong will be the first to be calling the no win guy's when something goes wrong to their loved ones due to a Doctor not being there.

[sidicks]

spaximus said:

It is easy for those who do not understand the way the NHS works to make assumptions that are incorrect.
Hunt does not want to close the NHS down but he wants to do everything on the cheap and has tried switching the blame from Greedy GP's who will not offer out of hours care, to Greedy Junior Doctors now.

Exactly my point - if you have a strong case then don't diminish that case by blatant lies / nonsense!

[Patent]

sidicks said:

Exactly my point - if you have a strong case then don't diminish that case by blatant lies / nonsense!

How do you see it then Sid?

[sidicks]

Patent said:

How do you see it then Sid?

I don't know enough about the situation to make a judgement - clearly i can't support measures that require hospital doctors to work longer for less.

But when people start making nonsense claims about "closing down the NHS", it's hard to take other things they say seriously (when they might actually be accurate and relevant).

Edited by sidicks on Sunday 18th October 12:15

[VolvoT5]

jjlynn27 said:

So with waiting times targets being missed mostly due to lack of staff, and one of the lowest costs per capita, you think that solution is to cut it back aggressively?

Shh... don't talk sense, everyone (that reads the mail) knows the NHS is a huge money pit stuffed full of fat cat managers and greedy overpaid doctors and the whole service needs to be made 'efficient' by forcing these lazy public sector slackers to pull their weight.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

So with waiting times targets being missed mostly due to lack of staff, and one of the lowest costs per capita, you think that solution is to cut it back aggressively?

In what world is increasing funding above the rate of inflation equal to 'aggressive cutbacks' ??

[IanA2]

sidicks said:

IanA2 said:

Do you honestly think it's as simple as that? There are tens of thousands of Juniors on the streets today, they are fighting for the NHS itself. Medics are almost impossible to stir into action. Hunt has managed it, Hunt wants to shut the NHS down and reducing the wage-bill is a classic strategy when plumping up an asset for sale.

Nonsense like this doesn't help your case.

He does you know. Don't say you weren't told the the NHS becomes VirginCare. Mind you, they are already running places but they won't put their logo on the door.

[Derek Smith]

IanA2 said:

Have a guess, one lot save lives, the other lot fiddle their expenses...go on, give it a stab.

The government does tell lies. It goes for all of them. It is official policy. The euphemism is spin, but it is lies.

One government, I forget which, promised that they would increase the size of the police by n%. This was stated in the media and this massive increase was used to show how bloated the police were.

However, the increase promised was nothing more than a total of all the promises that had already been made during the life of the government. However some hadn't been delivered - and the numbers never reached the figures that were promised before the lie of an increase. It was bull. The promise of the second increase was used to explain away the lack of deliverance of the first promise, the one, if you remember, was the subject of the second promise.

With the NHS (and the police and schooling) now being political we will never know what is going on. You can't believe the media, and as wel all know, if the BBC says something against what the DM says, it is being left wing despite it being true.

I'm fairly confident that the decision has been given the normal 'spin'. I never believe government stats and figures.

[VolvoT5]

sidicks said:

In what world is increasing funding above the rate of inflation equal to 'aggressive cutbacks' ??

Health cost inflation greater than standard rate of inflation, an ageing (but not healthier) population plus expensive reorganisations means effectively real cuts. Even the government reckon 22bn 'efficiency savings' are required to make their figures work..... 22bn is total fantasy. They are slowly starving the NHS of cash and when it all falls down they will throw their hands up in the air and argue it is proof the NHS is 'unfit for purpose'.

Problem with the NHS is people won't realise what a great service we had until it is gone.... or at least too damaged to save.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Saturday 17th October 20:35

[sidicks]

IanA2 said:

He does you know. Don't say you weren't told the the NHS becomes VirginCare. Mind you, they are already running places but they won't put their logo on the door.

Rubbish, as any objective evidence will confirm.

What % of the NHS services are provided by private companies?

How did this change under Labour? How has this changed under the Coalition and more recently the Conservatives? What did the Tory manifesto have to say about NHS privatisation?

[williamp]

The BMA dont like to admit it, but they are a trade union. Just like unite, unison etc . Alaigned with Comrade Corbyn