Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
turbobloke said:
As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.
A client can get more money, no one can get a second life, on a daily basis doctors stop many loosing their only one.turbobloke said:
Dixy said:
turbobloke said:
As it may have increased recently we can take £2m. On that basis I could lose several lives in one 48hr period. The last 48 hour stint 'saved' about 10 lives, in the fantasy world of WTP. Cool.
A client can get more money, no one can get a second life, on a daily basis doctors stop many loosing their only one.You must have missed it where I said:
and for wry amusement only
turbobloke said:
968 said:
mph1977 said:
Dixy said:
mph1977 said:
few Junior doctors who actually do 'on-call' do a great deal of work during the on calls - instead work is done by those who are working full shift rotas -
From which lavatory wall did you get these "facts"cross cover for 'head and neck' has been a feature of some hospitals for well over a decade ( despite the risks of OMF SHOs ( who are dentists) covering ENT and opthalmics )
a lot of tertiary services long ago abandoned any pretence of of out of hours cover except by Career grade / consultants insrtead relying on the ward cover SHOs for whichever directorate they fall into
MPH what is your connection to the debate?
mph1977 said:
that depends on the culture of the hospital in question
my connectiojn to the debate , professional ... as a health Professional who can see that the NHS is the cause of many of it;s own problems and needs a night of the long knivesd among both lay management and the (alleged) Clinicians as managers ...
might also get ride of the incestuous stockholm syndrome suffering ill prepared un -redundables in Nursign and AHP 'leadership'
I can only speak about 7 deanerys in England and Wales but doubt others are significantly different. Are you talking about a week day 8-4 or are you talking 24/7my connectiojn to the debate , professional ... as a health Professional who can see that the NHS is the cause of many of it;s own problems and needs a night of the long knivesd among both lay management and the (alleged) Clinicians as managers ...
might also get ride of the incestuous stockholm syndrome suffering ill prepared un -redundables in Nursign and AHP 'leadership'
Health care professional is usually the term for a care assistant in a residential home, I doubt that is you but to be clear, as previously stated, my view point is Father of a CT1.
Much of your post is possibly correct but off topic, which is Junior doctors contracts
turbobloke said:
Back on-topic there's potentially some good news for patients whose operations would be cancelled with more strikes - talks have resumed, with discussions held yesterday and more planned for today.
http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/new-push-to-resolv...
Difficult to reconcile the fact that HMG say they wish to negotiate but also say they will impose the contract if they dont get their own way.http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/new-push-to-resolv...
turbobloke said:
Clearly.
Meanwhile...only two or three hours old, is this report:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/15/je...
"Hunt revives threat of 'nuclear option' for junior doctors contract."
Blood vessels popping should be OK as it's doctors involved. Heal thyself etc
They wont do it but if he imposed his contract and the JDs went on all out full strike who would have to blink first.
barryrs said:
Seems this is quite personal for Mr Hopkins
Interesting that he is in Wales who are not adopting Hunts contract, I wonder if he will be in the Birthday honors list.Telegraph said:
Russell Hopkins, a retired surgeon, and former chairman of the BMA in Wales, was left with nerve and bladder damage after undergoing hip surgery in June 2011 - on a Thursday - and being left for days without seeing a consultant, as his condition worsened. Despite his pleas - and those from his daughter, a hospital consultant - it was not until four days later, on the Monday, that he was seen by specialists, and complications uncovered, which caused permanent damage to his bladder and nerves.
I watched question time on the interweb to see the bit about junior doctors. It is quite outstanding how badly informed those that speak out are. To the lady from the papers, the Hippocratic oath disappeared years ago. To the unfairly shouted down patient, Junior doctors DO work 24 hours a day 365 days a year already, they are not the part that stops the NHS being 24/7.
To all who say they are putting patients at risk by striking, this is an actual rota for an actual junior doctor since christmas; work dates, Monday 28th December, 29th,30th,31st,1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th,7th,8th, Saturday 9th and Sunday 10th off, work Monday 11th,12th,13th,14th,15th,16th,17th,18th,19th,20th,21st,22nd. some of those were on call so 13 hour shifts. What are the chances of them making a mistake.
To all who say they are putting patients at risk by striking, this is an actual rota for an actual junior doctor since christmas; work dates, Monday 28th December, 29th,30th,31st,1st,2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th,7th,8th, Saturday 9th and Sunday 10th off, work Monday 11th,12th,13th,14th,15th,16th,17th,18th,19th,20th,21st,22nd. some of those were on call so 13 hour shifts. What are the chances of them making a mistake.
As the OP of this thread it has been frustrating how far off topic it has gone, it is about junior Doctors and their disagreement with the temporary Secretary for Health.
Hunt has spun that this is all about getting a 7 day NHS, there are junior doctors at work every second of every day, all 366 days this year.
Hunt claims the country pays a fortune for their training, but he not only counts the salary they are paid for doing their job but also ads the money the JDs pay for all their courses and exams, about £6,000 a year.
Hunt has announced he will now impose the contract, but which contract will he impose, the one he announced many moons ago or the final offer on the table, it would appear to be the latter.
One of the main original sticking points was the removal from trusts of financial penalties for exceeding working hours. This was regarded by JDs as a significant risk to patient safety. Having re-instated the fines many trusts say they will not introduce the contract.
The final sticking point is not should they work Saturdays, but should it be regarded as a non- standard working day and therefor been paid at a premium rate, the BMA made a compromise offer that was accepted by the negotiators but vetoed by Hunt.
He has therefore chosen to go toe to toe with a highly intelligent opponent.
Please keep this thread on topic and start your own threads for equally important but different subjects.
Hunt has spun that this is all about getting a 7 day NHS, there are junior doctors at work every second of every day, all 366 days this year.
Hunt claims the country pays a fortune for their training, but he not only counts the salary they are paid for doing their job but also ads the money the JDs pay for all their courses and exams, about £6,000 a year.
Hunt has announced he will now impose the contract, but which contract will he impose, the one he announced many moons ago or the final offer on the table, it would appear to be the latter.
One of the main original sticking points was the removal from trusts of financial penalties for exceeding working hours. This was regarded by JDs as a significant risk to patient safety. Having re-instated the fines many trusts say they will not introduce the contract.
The final sticking point is not should they work Saturdays, but should it be regarded as a non- standard working day and therefor been paid at a premium rate, the BMA made a compromise offer that was accepted by the negotiators but vetoed by Hunt.
He has therefore chosen to go toe to toe with a highly intelligent opponent.
Please keep this thread on topic and start your own threads for equally important but different subjects.
RYH64E said:
One thing (of many) that I don't understand is, if life as a Junior Doctor is so bad, why is there so much competition for places at Medical School? Long hours and poor pay for Junior Doctors have been complaints for as long as I can remember, and that's a long time, yet according to the BMA there were 11.2 applicants per place at Medical School in 2013 compared to a higher education average average of 5.5. That doesn't suggest a recruitment crisis to me, maybe because longer term prospects for doctors are very good?
What a 17 year old filling out a UCAS form perceives and is frequently misled by a school wishing to massage its Oxbridge/medschool stats and what it turns out in the real world to be are another significant reason for so many dropping out of medicine. By which time both the country and the student have invested a huge amount of wasted capital, time and effort.What is the next thing you don't understand?
turbobloke said:
Dixy said:
And exactly how does enraging and demoralizing and disincentivising a significant part of the workforce help reduce waste, fraud and error?
1. Nobody said it would do that so why ask as though somebody did2. Therefore pointless argumentative question
3. Cart before horse - cut the waste, fraud and error first, then look around at what's possoble.
Hosenbugler said:
The original Nick the Greek said:
The junior doctors are a bunch of self serving, greedy individuals, who are a disgrace to their profession.
Putting money before the care of their patients. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic oath?
Fortunately, the striking junior doctors are in a minority. Let's hope this minority of militant, unionised self centred idiots get their cummupance.
About how I see it. Watching those idiots hopping up and down with placards really does make you wonder who is just taking up being doctors in recent times. I really did expect better of a profession I thought better of. Putting money before the care of their patients. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic oath?
Fortunately, the striking junior doctors are in a minority. Let's hope this minority of militant, unionised self centred idiots get their cummupance.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Dixy said:
Hosenbugler said:
The original Nick the Greek said:
The junior doctors are a bunch of self serving, greedy individuals, who are a disgrace to their profession.
Putting money before the care of their patients. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic oath?
Fortunately, the striking junior doctors are in a minority. Let's hope this minority of militant, unionised self centred idiots get their cummupance.
About how I see it. Watching those idiots hopping up and down with placards really does make you wonder who is just taking up being doctors in recent times. I really did expect better of a profession I thought better of. Putting money before the care of their patients. Whatever happened to the Hippocratic oath?
Fortunately, the striking junior doctors are in a minority. Let's hope this minority of militant, unionised self centred idiots get their cummupance.
Just because you have a jaundiced view of reality and start a thread expecting unanimous support for self-serving pointless disruptive political activists, don't for one minute think the rest of the world agrees with you.
If they were self serving then as the brightest of the bright they could have walked in to any degree they chose and any job they chose, greedy is when you take more than you put back but it is harder to find any group that give more to humanity. They have the total backing of their consultants and as a profession deserve far more respect than people who post insulting garbage with no evidence for their contentions.
Whilst meaningful dialogue was taking place they called off action, ensured that cover was always in place with far more notice given than required. One of their key demands was that Trusts had to be penalized for riding roughshod and abusing working hours. countless posters have gone off topic and talked about errors, having been scheduled to work 7 consecutive 13 hour night shifts and after 6 hours of the final shift you are faced with someone who will die if you fail to make difficult decisions, it is not you who should be sanctioned for an error.
The Hippocratic oath disappeared a long time ago from most med schools.
Where do you get your statistics from about % members of the BMA and % that voted, even Hunt acknowledged that they had an absolute mandate.
As to the assertion that I am a lefty, it proves you base your facts on pure fantasy.
And if you think they should all be got rid of, just think that tomorrow when the person you love most in this world (probably yourself) gets hit by a drunk driver and arrives in hospital doing their best to die, it will be the people you disdain so much that works a miracle for far less than you would offer there and then.
The original Nick the Greek said:
turbobloke said:
A & E ?
Pay as you go.Next.
Its interesting that you seem to be advocating the USA system, that is fine whilst you are on the up elevator.
But when you walk in to a Doctors reception in a Lymes disease area, with an 8 year old boy with a tick, the first thing the receptionist says, after good morning, is may I have your insurance details and your credit card.
Free at the point of need is the NHS mantra and envied the whole world over.
Oh and for the record in the USA a Junior Doctor earns 20 times what they do herer.
Its interesting that even Turbo disagrees with you.
Edited by Dixy on Tuesday 16th February 07:46
Edited by Dixy on Tuesday 16th February 07:49
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