Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
So you are trying to say that the people in the BMA, who in the main come from the medical fraternity, should lower the expectations of it's members?
This dispute is about several things, pay, hours conditions are all part of it. To each Doctor there will be things that are more important to them and yes some will have socialist views that a Labour government would give them more and to be honest the way they gave everything away to the GP's when last in office, you can see why.
The reality is the NHS has to change, Doctors know this but the problem is that Hunt feels instead of dealing with the real issues it is best to pick a fight with those who want to be rewarded fairly and treated with respect.
The BMA wanted to have talks, but Hunt would only do so if his many points were not open for discussion. What was the point? He then decides to impose a contract, sure in his mind the Doctors would not strike, the proved overwhelmingly they would, so he has been forced into talks.
But this is far from over, the reality is all that Hunt has done is agree to further talks and as a result the strike is deferred unless Hunt makes changes to the plan he has.
All this thread has done is to show the lack of knowledge of the NHS, the bile thrown against Doctors by those who seem to feel that a Doctor being a public servant is there to be abused and should be thankful. And those throwing the most bile will be those who moan the worst when the NHS fails to provide or a Doctor makes a mistake.
But what this thread has proved the most is that no matter how rich or successful people may be once they have dug in nothing will ever change their views no matter how ridiculous and arguing is a pointless exercise.
This dispute is about several things, pay, hours conditions are all part of it. To each Doctor there will be things that are more important to them and yes some will have socialist views that a Labour government would give them more and to be honest the way they gave everything away to the GP's when last in office, you can see why.
The reality is the NHS has to change, Doctors know this but the problem is that Hunt feels instead of dealing with the real issues it is best to pick a fight with those who want to be rewarded fairly and treated with respect.
The BMA wanted to have talks, but Hunt would only do so if his many points were not open for discussion. What was the point? He then decides to impose a contract, sure in his mind the Doctors would not strike, the proved overwhelmingly they would, so he has been forced into talks.
But this is far from over, the reality is all that Hunt has done is agree to further talks and as a result the strike is deferred unless Hunt makes changes to the plan he has.
All this thread has done is to show the lack of knowledge of the NHS, the bile thrown against Doctors by those who seem to feel that a Doctor being a public servant is there to be abused and should be thankful. And those throwing the most bile will be those who moan the worst when the NHS fails to provide or a Doctor makes a mistake.
But what this thread has proved the most is that no matter how rich or successful people may be once they have dug in nothing will ever change their views no matter how ridiculous and arguing is a pointless exercise.
turbobloke said:
What I said was 'BMA senior echelon' and that's correct. I didn't make any claims about whatever committee you want to cite. I then went on to discuss their own negotiating skills, purely as a means of gaining a sense of where the BMA negotiators will be getting their inspiration from. Do BMA leaders not lead? These are the top dogs, their achievements in awarding themselves large secret pay awards sets a cute backdrop for the junior doctor negotiations. As I also said earlier, I wouldn't describe this as dinosaur troughing, preferring the concept of reward for people at the pinnacle of a medico-political career, noting the political.
So utterly irrelevant to this discussion. The negotiating team for the JDC are not the same people and whether they are 'inspired' by the BMA committee members is completely irrelevant and frank supposition on your part, however, it fits into your flimsy and increasingly desperate attempts to justify your position that the junior doctors, (all 98% of them) are a band of ruthless militants, which is a total misrepresentation of the truth and totally at odds with their behaviour as a professional group over the years, despite them having to put up with terrible working conditions and changes to the structure of their training.turbobloke said:
Nobody is stuck with them. Get your facts right, or somebody might call you an idiot. It shouldn't be necessary to point out to a senior doctor that the BMA represents ~150,000 of the UK’s ~230,000 registered working doctors, so around 80,000 (using those round numbers demonstrante that medics aren't stuck at all.
My facts are absolutely straight because unlike you, I know what I'm talking about as work in this sector every day and have done for 20 years, so aren't producing spurious facts from my arse and posting them on the internet. Yes we are stuck with them. Ask any consultant and they'll tell you we aren't and never have been happy with the BMA which in general represents the interests of GPs more than hospital doctors. However the hospital consultant organisations carry no political power hence we are stuck with the BMA.turbobloke said:
Another strawman, expressed weasly as a question. Nowhere have I been touting for Hunt, I've said repeatedly that emissions from both sides cannot be trusted.
Weak stuff; apart from getting your facts sorted, try for a better and more original insult with an element of humour next time.
Your entire position on this thread has been to demonstrate what poor Hunt is 'up against' or did you not say that? He's a lying mendacious sWeak stuff; apart from getting your facts sorted, try for a better and more original insult with an element of humour next time.
tbag who has the honour of being the worst health secretary in living memory and that's up against pretty stiff opposition, these contract changes to the juniors has been dealt with in utter ineptitude by an arrogant minister who has adopted a tyrannical approach thinking he could simply force totally unfair contracts on the juniors. He hasn't been able to and for once a group of doctors has acted in a unified way. Your position has also been to try to characterise doctors as some sort of communist sympathisers which is utterly absurd and also quite mendacious on your part. Many senior doctors are conservative voters, however, we totally support the juniors because we can see the damage these contracts will do to patients and our clinical services that Hunt cannot see. turbobloke said:
Nor did they approve when two or three images of strongly politicised anti-Tory junior doctor campaign slogans were pictured (I posted a sample from many) and again the vested interests worked overtime to attack the messenger while ignoring the message.
Firstly I'm not a "vested interest". Secondly I didn't post anything that even you could interpret as a personal attack. Thirdly the message shown by your pictures is that some doctors may conceivablyhave a political bias, I'm not sure this is news. Your message was that a politicised anti-Tory bias is the reason for the strikes. You failed to prove that, the pictures don't prove that and so, in typical fashion you have expanded the argument and are now arguing an irrelevant point that nobody was making anyway.wolves_wanderer said:
turbobloke said:
Nor did they approve when two or three images of strongly politicised anti-Tory junior doctor campaign slogans were pictured (I posted a sample from many) and again the vested interests worked overtime to attack the messenger while ignoring the message.
Firstly I'm not a "vested interest".The images show what they show
there are plenty of them, if you don't like it then sorry about that.Dixy said:
barryrs said:
72 hours on call is not 72 hours on your feet
What do you think on call actually entails.The SiMAP ruling in the European court which defines all time spent on duty on Trust premises as work. This means that while a doctor is on duty, all rest which is taken on the Trust site (eg when resident on call) is counted as work.
So in summary a JD might work a 72 hour shift but for 16 of those hours they will be resting.
I simply cant believe this process is not being followed as if not there would be uproar from JD's
What do you think on call means?
turbobloke said:
So the comment didn't apply to you - you know that, so it can only be the case that your assumption of inclusion was vexatious.
The rest of it did. Feel free to ignore this as is your wont.turbobloke said:
The images show what they show there are plenty of them, if you don't like it then sorry about that.
Yes they do. They don't show what you say they show though there are plenty of them, if you don't like it then sorry about that.turbobloke said:
BigMon said:
turbobloke said:
metoo posts focusing juvenile rhetoric on a PHer rather than offering anything remotely relevant to the topic.
Physician heal thyself.Looking at the BMA senior echelon to see what Hunt is up against it looks very much as though junior doctors have a winning team behind them, with a track record including one-off pay rise successes at around and above 100% in a single grab. The only flies in the ointment are that the BMA bigwigs negotiated with themselves, awarded each other pay rises of e.g. 94%, 99% and 137%, then kept the outcomes of their negotiations with each other secret. Some might describe this as typical underhand secretive Union dinosauring involving first-rate troughing off the backs of 'poorly paid' junior doctors, but I prefer the BMA's own excuse that the generous pay rises recognise "the pinnacle of a doctor’s medico-political career" especially with an appropriate emphasis on political.
Doctor union awards secret pay hikes to senior members
Cool.
The major difference one group looks after other people whilst the other look after themselves.
barryrs said:
So in summary a JD might work a 72 hour shift but for 16 of those hours they will be resting.
I simply cant believe this process is not being followed as if not there would be uproar from JD's
What do you think on call means?
You didn't believe that doctors don't have any say in their rota either. That doesn't make it less true. The ones that I know, already work over and above contracted hours. As it was already explained to you, by the trainee surgeon, on this very thread. I simply cant believe this process is not being followed as if not there would be uproar from JD's
What do you think on call means?
On-call is supposed to mean that you are making yourself available in case of an emergency. In practice it means that you'll be spending your time covering different hospitals due to chronic lack of staff. Even when you breach, you'll not be able to leave at the time that you were supposed to leave.
You mentioned how they have a very sweet deal. If you actually think so, why not join? You'll have, according to this thread, job for life, amazing salary, you'll working hours will be guaranteed and you'll not be required to stay and do unpaid overtime all the time. What's not to like.
So personal anecdotes trump union and European legislation; excuse me if im skeptical.
Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
Edited by barryrs on Wednesday 2nd December 11:37
Many years ago when MrsIanA2, now a senior, was training, it was not unusual for her to work up to 120 hours a week. For this was paid 40 hrs @x, 40 hrs @x-66% and 40 hrs at x-100%.
Whatever weasel words wide-boy JH spouts, it is clear to me that those are the days he'd love to return to, despite his claims to stand for patient safety.
Unless and until you have real experience of how clinicians are treated in parts of the NHS, you have no idea of how Stalinist it has become. Complain and you are sacked. Point out issues that are causing harm to patients and you are sacked.
Still, Hunt has done the impossible. He has united Juniors. That's harder than herding cats (or consultants).
Whatever weasel words wide-boy JH spouts, it is clear to me that those are the days he'd love to return to, despite his claims to stand for patient safety.
Unless and until you have real experience of how clinicians are treated in parts of the NHS, you have no idea of how Stalinist it has become. Complain and you are sacked. Point out issues that are causing harm to patients and you are sacked.
Still, Hunt has done the impossible. He has united Juniors. That's harder than herding cats (or consultants).
IanA2 said:
Whatever weasel words wide-boy JH spouts...
I agree with you. Politicians, lips moving, etc. Maximum scepticism applies.
I'd just add that the same sentiments apply to any BMA weasel words.
If either side were to refrain from weasel words then the above will not apply of course
barryrs said:
So personal anecdotes trump union and European legislation; excuse me if im skeptical.
Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
To answer your questions directly, I was a junior doctor not too long ago and it's not a 'sweet deal' in any shape or form. Yes there are rules set in place by EWTD but these are routinely ignored in many NHS trusts where I have worked. This, in some cases, resulted in fines for the trust when it became evident what was happening, but in reality a lot of trusts bully their junior doctors into working extracontractual hours outside of EWTD. Also the reality of being a junior doctor means you cannot down tools when your shift ends or if you are required to go on a break. The very notion of a break makes me laugh because it never happens, despite their being mandatory rules about breaks every few hours. If a patient is sick and the junior is sorting them out, they cannot leave and they do not leave because in the most part they are dedicated. This means they regularly work a few hours on top of their allocated shifts.Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
Edited by barryrs on Wednesday 2nd December 11:37
If rotas are non-compliant, yes there are possible avenues for help but these have often been met with bullying by the hospital trust. There is also direct and indirect intimidation applied and threats to future careers, as I have experienced personally in a trust where I was the senior registrar in charge of the rota.
An example of how negatively this will affect trainees can be supplied by my junior who is an ST2 doctor and will be required to work additional hours every day and on the weekend and have his out of hours supplement slashed, so his pay will be 30% less each month, for doing more hours.
Another example is my wife who is s GP trainee. As a GP trainee and as a mum who has taken time out of training, she will lose her GP supplement which means nearly 40% reduction in her salary, but be expected to do more hours (in fact as she works within the hospital, she will be expected to do the same hours for significantly less pay than the core medical trainees). We've done our sums at home and I've worked out that if she leaves medicine altogether, we will be better off as we can reduce our child care costs and she can stay at home.
Hopefully these examples will illustrate how unfair the contract is and how unlikely it will be to encourage junior doctors to progress through training in this country to become GPs or Consultants. Indeed many are already seeking emigration to Aus/NZ, and who can blame them?
barryrs said:
So personal anecdotes trump union and European legislation; excuse me if im skeptical.
Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
You read what you want to read. I've pointed out that you were sceptical about choosing rotas. You are just as wrong about this. If you think that doctors would 'down the tools', be it operation or counselling someone suicidal, you are wrong again. It's not about 'trumping' anything, it's about what happens in practice. The fact is that reality is different to your preconceived ideas will not change, regardless of how much would you like to be right. Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
fblm said:
I'm quite surprised by the political tone this is taking. IME neither junior nor senior doctors are remotely left leaning, quite the opposite.
What is surprising? Some will be Labour voters, some will be Tory voters, very very few would have any political posters of any kind, which is to be expected during any demo. If there was a Labour health minister trying to do the same, you'd see the the occasional 'fvck Labour' placard. Labour supporters would probably complain about amount of blue used on placards, as 'the pictures show, what the pictures show'. Different side of the same idiotic coin. 968 said:
barryrs said:
So personal anecdotes trump union and European legislation; excuse me if im skeptical.
Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
To answer your questions directly, I was a junior doctor not too long ago and it's not a 'sweet deal' in any shape or form. Yes there are rules set in place by EWTD but these are routinely ignored in many NHS trusts where I have worked. This, in some cases, resulted in fines for the trust when it became evident what was happening, but in reality a lot of trusts bully their junior doctors into working extracontractual hours outside of EWTD. Also the reality of being a junior doctor means you cannot down tools when your shift ends or if you are required to go on a break. The very notion of a break makes me laugh because it never happens, despite their being mandatory rules about breaks every few hours. If a patient is sick and the junior is sorting them out, they cannot leave and they do not leave because in the most part they are dedicated. This means they regularly work a few hours on top of their allocated shifts.Our contributors who are in the industry seem less than informed on the changes which surprises me somewhat. Our very own I will be £1000 per month worse off whilst working a 42 hour week and covering hundreds of miles sat in my car for example.
On the topic of Rota's; if they are unreasonable there is plenty of help out there - http://bma.org.uk/support-at-work/contracts/junior...
Personally being a doctor is not a job that has ever interested me so I wont me looking to retain thanks.
What i actually said.
"So the poster in question works 40 hours a week with less than one third unsocial every week for the length of his training?
Sounds a pretty sweet deal to be."
Edited by barryrs on Wednesday 2nd December 11:37
If rotas are non-compliant, yes there are possible avenues for help but these have often been met with bullying by the hospital trust. There is also direct and indirect intimidation applied and threats to future careers, as I have experienced personally in a trust where I was the senior registrar in charge of the rota.
An example of how negatively this will affect trainees can be supplied by my junior who is an ST2 doctor and will be required to work additional hours every day and on the weekend and have his out of hours supplement slashed, so his pay will be 30% less each month, for doing more hours.
Another example is my wife who is s GP trainee. As a GP trainee and as a mum who has taken time out of training, she will lose her GP supplement which means nearly 40% reduction in her salary, but be expected to do more hours (in fact as she works within the hospital, she will be expected to do the same hours for significantly less pay than the core medical trainees). We've done our sums at home and I've worked out that if she leaves medicine altogether, we will be better off as we can reduce our child care costs and she can stay at home.
Hopefully these examples will illustrate how unfair the contract is and how unlikely it will be to encourage junior doctors to progress through training in this country to become GPs or Consultants. Indeed many are already seeking emigration to Aus/NZ, and who can blame them?
jjlynn27 said:
You read what you want to read. I've pointed out that you were sceptical about choosing rotas. You are just as wrong about this. If you think that doctors would 'down the tools', be it operation or counselling someone suicidal, you are wrong again. It's not about 'trumping' anything, it's about what happens in practice. The fact is that reality is different to your preconceived ideas will not change, regardless of how much would you like to be right.
Why do you insist in misrepresenting my posts?What I actually said
barryrs said:
Thats as i would expect but to suggest he has zero flexibility seems unlikely.
I did not suggest rota's could be chosen simply influenced.I understand that a JD cant down tools at the end of a shift however the BMA says that if a JD's shift is extended that time will be reduced elsewhere to a maximum of 56 hours when working full shifts.
Have a read yourself - http://bma.org.uk/-/media/files/pdfs/practical%20a...
Considering everyone is in agreement that working hours will not increase and no such proposals are being made this talk of working hours is starting to feel like a diversion.
Edited by barryrs on Wednesday 2nd December 16:38
I was hospital yesterday with my son, and A&E the night before. It's plainly obvious to anyone with half a brain that it isn't more hours, or more money that's the problem in the NHS.
It's that it's being mis-used.
The A&E waiting room was crowded with people who were, at best, mildly unwell. Many were playing on their phones, or outside having a fag. Some of the kids (with a bandage around the wrist) were running around playing with each other. Amongst all these were a handful who clearly needed to be there. A girls with both eyes colossally swollen, to the point where she was unable to open them, and clearly very, very distressed.
When I left 4 hours later, she was still in there unseen by a doctor.
Elsewhere there were several mentally ill patients who was causing chaos. One was taking four nurses to restraint her, nurses that could and should have been treating someone else. Another just sat in a wheelchair sobbing, until he needed a fag, then he insisted on being wheeled outside to smoke. When he needed a pee, he walked.
There were four resuscitation patient in that night. and each time the doctors (there were only 3) were called away. All the resus patients were very, very frail and elderly. As were the great majority of people being treated. It's not that they shouldn't be, it's that they shouldn't be in A&E. One of the nurses said that an elderly lady came in one a fortnight.
Elsewhere, a GP relative spent what he says was the worst patient session of his life being harangued by an Arab. The translator hadn't turned up, and the Arab didn't speak a word of English, and the GP didn't speak a word of Arabic. The Arab guy felt it was his human right to have a translator (it's not, it's not even required by law in the UK) and that he should be understood. It took an hour of the GP's time.
His wife, also a GP, went on a house call to someone who wondered if she could clip her dogs toenails!! She hadn't called 999 because she didn't think it was life threatening, so she called her GP and pretended to be ill.
Money, new contracts etc…etc… would solve NONE of these things.
It's that it's being mis-used.
The A&E waiting room was crowded with people who were, at best, mildly unwell. Many were playing on their phones, or outside having a fag. Some of the kids (with a bandage around the wrist) were running around playing with each other. Amongst all these were a handful who clearly needed to be there. A girls with both eyes colossally swollen, to the point where she was unable to open them, and clearly very, very distressed.
When I left 4 hours later, she was still in there unseen by a doctor.
Elsewhere there were several mentally ill patients who was causing chaos. One was taking four nurses to restraint her, nurses that could and should have been treating someone else. Another just sat in a wheelchair sobbing, until he needed a fag, then he insisted on being wheeled outside to smoke. When he needed a pee, he walked.
There were four resuscitation patient in that night. and each time the doctors (there were only 3) were called away. All the resus patients were very, very frail and elderly. As were the great majority of people being treated. It's not that they shouldn't be, it's that they shouldn't be in A&E. One of the nurses said that an elderly lady came in one a fortnight.
Elsewhere, a GP relative spent what he says was the worst patient session of his life being harangued by an Arab. The translator hadn't turned up, and the Arab didn't speak a word of English, and the GP didn't speak a word of Arabic. The Arab guy felt it was his human right to have a translator (it's not, it's not even required by law in the UK) and that he should be understood. It took an hour of the GP's time.
His wife, also a GP, went on a house call to someone who wondered if she could clip her dogs toenails!! She hadn't called 999 because she didn't think it was life threatening, so she called her GP and pretended to be ill.
Money, new contracts etc…etc… would solve NONE of these things.
barryrs said:
I did not suggest rota's could be chosen simply influenced.
They can't. 'it seems unlikely' = sceptical. sceptical = "having doubts or reservations"
I didn't misrepresent anything.
barryrs said:
I understand that a JD cant down tools at the end of a shift however the BMA says that if a JD's shift is extended that time will be reduced elsewhere to a maximum of 56 hours when working full shifts.
It doesn't happen in practice. Due to, once again, chronic shortages of staff. Practicalities were explained to you number of times. Nothing more to add there.Considering everyone is in agreement that working hours will not increase and no such proposals are being made this talk of working hours is starting to feel like a diversion.
Diversion from what? Hours are very much part of the new proposal.
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