Homeopathy.... At last
Discussion
Mastodon2 said:
I don't know if anyone heard the raving homeopathy witch on Radio 4 this morning, but her arguments were laughable in the extreme. It's offensive that the NHS even prescribed this BS in the first place.
I heard that. Actually scary that she appeared to have a medical qualification.Whilst I definitely believe in the power of placebo for a small small number of impressionable people, homeopathy has absolutely no place in a health service that is already at breaking point.
Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
Dromedary66 said:
Whilst I definitely believe in the power of placebo for a small small number of impressionable people, homeopathy has absolutely no place in a health service that is already at breaking point.
Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
Just like to clarify; you don't have to be impressionable for the placebo affect to work. Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
NWTony said:
Dromedary66 said:
Whilst I definitely believe in the power of placebo for a small small number of impressionable people, homeopathy has absolutely no place in a health service that is already at breaking point.
Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
Just like to clarify; you don't have to be impressionable for the placebo affect to work. Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
, exactly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Placebo_effe...
"Functional imaging upon placebo analgesia has been summarized as showing that the placebo response is "mediated by "top-down" processes dependent on frontal cortical areas that generate and maintain cognitive expectancies. Dopaminergic reward pathways may underlie these expectancies". "Diseases lacking major 'top-down' or cortically based regulation may be less prone to placebo-related improvement"
eldar said:
Mastodon2 said:
I don't know if anyone heard the raving homeopathy witch on Radio 4 this morning, but her arguments were laughable in the extreme. It's offensive that the NHS even prescribed this BS in the first place.
I heard that. Actually scary that she appeared to have a medical qualification.TwigtheWonderkid said:
eldar said:
Mastodon2 said:
I don't know if anyone heard the raving homeopathy witch on Radio 4 this morning, but her arguments were laughable in the extreme. It's offensive that the NHS even prescribed this BS in the first place.
I heard that. Actually scary that she appeared to have a medical qualification.Would anyone like to sign up to receive my new range of blood pressure reducing ear plugs? They are guaranteed to absorb the crap spouted by homeopaths. Only six quid a month.
ATG said:
I missed the interview. I'm pretty confident that my blood pressure is lower as a result.
Would anyone like to sign up to receive my new range of blood pressure reducing ear plugs? They are guaranteed to absorb the crap spouted by homeopaths. Only six quid a month.
Do they block out crap spouted by Corbyn too? Or is that extra...if so count me in!Would anyone like to sign up to receive my new range of blood pressure reducing ear plugs? They are guaranteed to absorb the crap spouted by homeopaths. Only six quid a month.
Halb said:
NWTony said:
Dromedary66 said:
Whilst I definitely believe in the power of placebo for a small small number of impressionable people, homeopathy has absolutely no place in a health service that is already at breaking point.
Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
Just like to clarify; you don't have to be impressionable for the placebo affect to work. Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
, exactly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Placebo_effe...
"Functional imaging upon placebo analgesia has been summarized as showing that the placebo response is "mediated by "top-down" processes dependent on frontal cortical areas that generate and maintain cognitive expectancies. Dopaminergic reward pathways may underlie these expectancies". "Diseases lacking major 'top-down' or cortically based regulation may be less prone to placebo-related improvement"
Dromedary66 said:
Whilst I definitely believe in the power of placebo for a small small number of impressionable people, homeopathy has absolutely no place in a health service that is already at breaking point.
Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
People have already corrected the mistake about placebo working on "impressionable people" - but I did want to say that I don't see why the NHS shouldn't have a placebo prescribing policy in cases where it's appropriate. They should be clear about what it is though (obviously not to the patients Hopefully the NHS scrapping the prescriptions for this is the last remainder of homeopathic nonsense they have been paying out for.
) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
BMWBen said:
People have already corrected the mistake about placebo working on "impressionable people" - but I did want to say that I don't see why the NHS shouldn't have a placebo prescribing policy in cases where it's appropriate. They should be clear about what it is though (obviously not to the patients ) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.
Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
There is loads on the internet with regards to the testing of placebos against homeopathy.) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
There was one strange case where placebos worked despite the person not knowing they were receiving anything. There was another bit of research where homeopathy worked less well than placebos. That result confused the hell out of the researchers.
There was one chap on here who was at an A&E when a chap was brought in with, essentially, an overdose of placebos. That was strange. There was an article in New Scientist where similar examples were quoted. The strangest thing about placebos is that they are stranger than anyone anticipated.
Dangerous stuff in fact.
BMWBen said:
People have already corrected the mistake about placebo working on "impressionable people" - but I did want to say that I don't see why the NHS shouldn't have a placebo prescribing policy in cases where it's appropriate. They should be clear about what it is though (obviously not to the patients ) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.
Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
I'd hazard a guess that homeopathy makes for a bloody good placebo because it's in opposition to conventional medicine and because its deluded practitioners believe the crap they're spouting. Lots of people at heart resent authority, and a sincerely delivered spiel is usually more convincing than one delivered by a person who knows they're talking out of their hole.) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
If undermining homeotwaddle causes am increase in trust and use of conventional medicine, then good. If it just undermines a placebo and doesn't replace it with anything else ... ?
Derek Smith said:
There is loads on the internet with regards to the testing of placebos against homeopathy.
There was one strange case where placebos worked despite the person not knowing they were receiving anything. There was another bit of research where homeopathy worked less well than placebos. That result confused the hell out of the researchers.
There was one chap on here who was at an A&E when a chap was brought in with, essentially, an overdose of placebos. That was strange. There was an article in New Scientist where similar examples were quoted. The strangest thing about placebos is that they are stranger than anyone anticipated.
Dangerous stuff in fact.
Its all essentially rubbish reporting though, I think you assume the tablet is the placebo when in fact it probably isn't.There was one strange case where placebos worked despite the person not knowing they were receiving anything. There was another bit of research where homeopathy worked less well than placebos. That result confused the hell out of the researchers.
There was one chap on here who was at an A&E when a chap was brought in with, essentially, an overdose of placebos. That was strange. There was an article in New Scientist where similar examples were quoted. The strangest thing about placebos is that they are stranger than anyone anticipated.
Dangerous stuff in fact.
ATG said:
BMWBen said:
People have already corrected the mistake about placebo working on "impressionable people" - but I did want to say that I don't see why the NHS shouldn't have a placebo prescribing policy in cases where it's appropriate. They should be clear about what it is though (obviously not to the patients ) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.
Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
I'd hazard a guess that homeopathy makes for a bloody good placebo because it's in opposition to conventional medicine and because its deluded practitioners believe the crap they're spouting. Lots of people at heart resent authority, and a sincerely delivered spiel is usually more convincing than one delivered by a person who knows they're talking out of their hole.) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
If undermining homeotwaddle causes am increase in trust and use of conventional medicine, then good. If it just undermines a placebo and doesn't replace it with anything else ... ?
rscott said:
ATG said:
BMWBen said:
People have already corrected the mistake about placebo working on "impressionable people" - but I did want to say that I don't see why the NHS shouldn't have a placebo prescribing policy in cases where it's appropriate. They should be clear about what it is though (obviously not to the patients ) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.
Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
I'd hazard a guess that homeopathy makes for a bloody good placebo because it's in opposition to conventional medicine and because its deluded practitioners believe the crap they're spouting. Lots of people at heart resent authority, and a sincerely delivered spiel is usually more convincing than one delivered by a person who knows they're talking out of their hole.) and the reasons/justification for doing it, and they should use the best placebo possible in each situation.Red capsules are more effective than white pills, and injections more effective than pills, but I wonder if anyone has tested homeopathy against these and seen if it's more or less effective?
If undermining homeotwaddle causes am increase in trust and use of conventional medicine, then good. If it just undermines a placebo and doesn't replace it with anything else ... ?
ATG and rscott, both really good points, the anti-authoritarians authority figure.
rscott said:
There's also the fact that the person has probably paid an extortionate amount for the 'medication' so really, really wants it to work..
I remember reading a study that said even the packaging is a factor too. Given identical tablets - one set in a Tesco Value box and one in fancy expensive packaging - and the latter outperformed the former. That might explain why somebody paying £120 for a bottle of tap water is able to convince themselves it's done something.Although it's quite clearly bulls
t, there are aspects that should be looked at seriously. People go to these therapies and clearly something makes them feel like it's working; maybe the environment or presentation of treatment or just the attitude of the staff.XM5ER said:
Ben - Sounds like a great idea, prescribe red placebos to patients with psychosomatic disorders, it would save the NHS a fortune. You could prescribe them to fat folk as well, tell 'em it will suppress their appetite and help them burn fat, actually that's a step too far (i.e. one step further than the distance from the sofa to the fridge).
ATG and rscott, both really good points, the anti-authoritarians authority figure.
Doctors used to prescribe sugar pill on a regular basis. It was deemed unprofessional by their standards committee despite it being shown to work in certain cases. In essence, homeopathy is there as a replacement, a much more expensive one of course.ATG and rscott, both really good points, the anti-authoritarians authority figure.
There was a bit in New Scientist where a team had looked into placebos under certain conditions; double blind and everything. They reckoned that it threw up more questions than answers. Many of the results were, to say the least, unexpected and that's not the half of it. Some were so weird that there was no logical, or even fanciful theories to explain them. The university didn't have the resources to proceed with any further tests.
XM5ER said:
Interesting side note. The placebo effect is more effective in the USA than in Western Europe, which I think points to the surprising fact that Americans are more influenced by authority figures than Europeans (on average).
It might be connected to 'belief' and the power of belief.More yanks believe in religion and UFOs and the like.
Halb said:
It might be connected to 'belief' and the power of belief.
More yanks believe in religion and UFOs and the like.
Oh, undoubtedly. The mind/body connection is such an interesting subject. Check Wim Hof and the experiments he is doing on control of the auto-immune systemMore yanks believe in religion and UFOs and the like.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26102-three...
durbster said:
I remember reading a study that said even the packaging is a factor too. Given identical tablets - one set in a Tesco Value box and one in fancy expensive packaging - and the latter outperformed the former. That might explain why somebody paying £120 for a bottle of tap water is able to convince themselves it's done something.
This is very true. I had to go to great lengths to convince the wife that the cetirizine pills I cold buy for 3p each are identical to the beconase ones at 25p each.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff