Paris shooting and casualties ?
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
I have it in for anyone who rules by terror. Call me old fashioned, but I think that liberal democracy is the least bad system of Government available, and am not very keen on secret police, torture cells and all that.
what works in UK doesn't have to work in those stans (actually it most likely won't work)the same way you can't apply the same strategy if you coach Barcelona and if you coach Rushden&Diamonds
TheExcession said:
AJS- said:
This lofty equating of Islam with 'all religions' is a big mistake. It's not Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Hindus slaughtering innocent civilians in the name of their creed, it's overwhelmingly Islamists.
Not all false beliefs are created equal. A false belief that the moon is made of cheese is likely to be more benign than a false belief that you are under a divine obligation to cleanse the world of non-believers. Yes you can spend ages arguing with the moon made of cheese guy and win the argument, but it's all for nought of the angel of death gets there in the interim.
If when confronted with it, you dismiss anything and everything that doesn't conform with your own outlook as being false and contemptible then you're well on the way to your own brand of intolerant zealotry. And perhaps worse you're blindsiding yourself to the very specific dangers which that threat poses. I don't know of anyone who was killed for not accepting that the moon was made of cheese.
The notion that everyone will ultimately yield to your superior ideas when they have enough rational argument and consumer goods is a foolish conceit. It's the notion summed up so well by the line in Full Metal Jacket 'Inside every gook there's an American waiting to get out.' It's false. Blind belief can be a hugely powerful motivator for people who aren't rational to start with.
This is why religion is largely accorded some respect which is greater than the merits of it's arguments alone. It's not just some theory people have dreamed up in a vacuum. It's deeply ingrained over generations of their family and their community, and it deals with profound questions of life and death, existence and morality.
If large numbers of people are prepared to kill and be killed for the same cause, it lends it no legitimacy to examine that cause more closely. When you do that with Islam a quiet different picture emerges from the one we as a society seem to be casually assuming.
Good post, and hopefully the cracks are beginning to appear.Not all false beliefs are created equal. A false belief that the moon is made of cheese is likely to be more benign than a false belief that you are under a divine obligation to cleanse the world of non-believers. Yes you can spend ages arguing with the moon made of cheese guy and win the argument, but it's all for nought of the angel of death gets there in the interim.
If when confronted with it, you dismiss anything and everything that doesn't conform with your own outlook as being false and contemptible then you're well on the way to your own brand of intolerant zealotry. And perhaps worse you're blindsiding yourself to the very specific dangers which that threat poses. I don't know of anyone who was killed for not accepting that the moon was made of cheese.
The notion that everyone will ultimately yield to your superior ideas when they have enough rational argument and consumer goods is a foolish conceit. It's the notion summed up so well by the line in Full Metal Jacket 'Inside every gook there's an American waiting to get out.' It's false. Blind belief can be a hugely powerful motivator for people who aren't rational to start with.
This is why religion is largely accorded some respect which is greater than the merits of it's arguments alone. It's not just some theory people have dreamed up in a vacuum. It's deeply ingrained over generations of their family and their community, and it deals with profound questions of life and death, existence and morality.
If large numbers of people are prepared to kill and be killed for the same cause, it lends it no legitimacy to examine that cause more closely. When you do that with Islam a quiet different picture emerges from the one we as a society seem to be casually assuming.
The Archbishop of Canterbury has admitted the terror attacks in Paris made him "doubt" the presence of God.
"Yes. Saturday morning - I was out and as I was walking I was praying and saying: 'God why - why is this happening? Where are you in all this?' and then engaging and talking to God. Yes, I doubt."
Powerful words from a true believer there, especially the talking and engaging to God bit.
Anyone here know how I can obtain a few moments talking and engaging with God? I've got more than a few questions that I'd like answers to. Surely by now God would have a mobile phone for texting, or be on facebook or twitter?
Where is He?
jmorgan said:
dandarez said:
Breadvan72 said:
My favourite non PC joke is -
Q: "Why are there no Muslims in Star Trek?"
A: "Because it's set in the future."
No religion at all, really. In Star Wars, meanwhile, the sensible and pragmatic Empire has to contend with a bunch of religious nutters who do magic, are very violent, and think it's OK to have slaves and so on.
I see the CoE 'The Lord's Prayer' advert to be played before Star Wars in cinemas has been banned. It, however, passed the board of censorship. It is the cinemas that have banned it. Now, tell me what company turns down a bag full of cash simply because they (cinemas) say it 'might offend some cinema goers'. Q: "Why are there no Muslims in Star Trek?"
A: "Because it's set in the future."
No religion at all, really. In Star Wars, meanwhile, the sensible and pragmatic Empire has to contend with a bunch of religious nutters who do magic, are very violent, and think it's OK to have slaves and so on.
Just watched the advert. Offensive? OFFS!
What a ridiculous PC country we now live in.
They turned down a bag full of money because of one word that engulfs the pc world and its idiots.
FEAR
AJS- said:
Derek
The point is that anyone can believe what they want about who we are, where we came from and why we're here so long as they can do so *within the confines of the just laws of a secular society.*
Nobody who truly believes in Islam can do this, because it is expressly prohibited by the core text and 1,400 years of practice.
I've read Derek's post to which I think you replied, and I've read your post several times.The point is that anyone can believe what they want about who we are, where we came from and why we're here so long as they can do so *within the confines of the just laws of a secular society.*
Nobody who truly believes in Islam can do this, because it is expressly prohibited by the core text and 1,400 years of practice.
I think you are both wrong.
I raised this point about 10 years ago when I first joined PH.
Currently we (most people) have a very 'simple' subject & object reality/philosophy. i.e. existence is something you can hold or something you can think about. There is nothing beyond that.
This is all wrong, these two layers (subject/object) are not enough to explain what is happening.
There is a different way of looking at all these problems that requires you to understand there are four levels in the hierarchy, physical, biological, social and intellectual.
ISIS are currently operating on the social-intellectual level, they have a social set of rules that are not agreeable with our intellectual
level of norms.
To defeat them will require an attack at their physical or biological level. We can not talk these people into believing something different. We can not talk them into thinking we are the good guys.
So we must destroy them physically, remove their monetary streams, then we must destroy them biologically, kill them, remove them socially, remove the doctrine, and intellectually triumph over their thought processes.
Ironically this is exactly what ISIS want to do to us.
AJS- said:
MC Bodge said:
The whole concept of killing non-believers is an odd one.
The knowledge of being one of the chosen few and "saved"/given a place in paradise should surely be enough for any believer? Why would they care if people at the other side of the world (unknown at the time of writing of the big religious texts) were believers or not?
- Of course, people at the other side of the world didn't believe exactly the same thing because the holy texts were written by men, not handed down by a god to all people.
Being told to go out and convert or murder non-believers is a fairly transparent attempt at spreading influence and power, nothing else. If this is not obvious to some people, then they are deluded.
Ask 1.6 billion Muslims.The knowledge of being one of the chosen few and "saved"/given a place in paradise should surely be enough for any believer? Why would they care if people at the other side of the world (unknown at the time of writing of the big religious texts) were believers or not?
- Of course, people at the other side of the world didn't believe exactly the same thing because the holy texts were written by men, not handed down by a god to all people.
Being told to go out and convert or murder non-believers is a fairly transparent attempt at spreading influence and power, nothing else. If this is not obvious to some people, then they are deluded.
Halb said:
MC Bodge said:
The IRA weren't fighting to convert people to Catholicism or kill non-believers when they bombed Warrington, they were trying to achieve a united Ireland through violent means.
They had a goal. They used violence to achieve that goal, in what they saw as 'reprisals'. The Islamic lot have a goal and are using their attacks on their targets as 'reprisals'.And
on knowing the town, sincerely.What the IRA did, and tried to do, was awful.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 22 November 21:19
TheExcession said:
Ironically this is exactly what ISIS want to do to us.
This is the main problem that we have. Every potential solution that we have has the answer "but, this could strengthen ISIS", or "this is exactly what they want us to do".Today, on Radio 4, there was a "security expert" who was criticising Anonymous for RickRolling DAESH's webpages. His arguments were that there may be valuable intelligence on them and that they will just start new sites that we will need to try and find.
We can't be seen to dismiss every idea with the same replies. We need to grab the nettle to rip it out by its roots, even if it means being stung (possibly quite badly).
I really liked the wasp nest analogy earlier, but thought I'd use my own
.M
Today, on Radio 4, there was a "security expert" who was criticising Anonymous for RickRolling DAESH's webpages. His arguments were that there may be valuable intelligence on them and that they will just start new sites that we will need to try and find.
We can't be seen to dismiss every idea with the same replies. We need to grab the nettle to rip it out by its roots, even if it means being stung (possibly quite badly).
I really liked the wasp nest analogy earlier, but thought I'd use my own.Seems easier to spray the nettle from afar with RoundUp and then pull it out when it is dead to use our leader's strategy of not getting your hands dirty or hurt.
pingu393 said:
TheExcession said:
Ironically this is exactly what ISIS want to do to us.
This is the main problem that we have. Every potential solution that we have has the answer "but, this could strengthen ISIS", or "this is exactly what they want us to do".Today, on Radio 4, there was a "security expert" who was criticising Anonymous for RickRolling DAESH's webpages. His arguments were that there may be valuable intelligence on them and that they will just start new sites that we will need to try and find.
We can't be seen to dismiss every idea with the same replies. We need to grab the nettle to rip it out by its roots, even if it means being stung (possibly quite badly).
I really liked the wasp nest analogy earlier, but thought I'd use my own
.greygoose said:
M
Today, on Radio 4, there was a "security expert" who was criticising Anonymous for RickRolling DAESH's webpages. His arguments were that there may be valuable intelligence on them and that they will just start new sites that we will need to try and find.
We can't be seen to dismiss every idea with the same replies. We need to grab the nettle to rip it out by its roots, even if it means being stung (possibly quite badly).
I really liked the wasp nest analogy earlier, but thought I'd use my own.Seems easier to spray the nettle from afar with RoundUp and then pull it out when it is dead to use our leader's strategy of not getting your hands dirty or hurt.
I knew mine was the better metaphor pingu393 said:
TheExcession said:
Ironically this is exactly what ISIS want to do to us.
This is the main problem that we have. Every potential solution that we have has the answer "but, this could strengthen ISIS", or "this is exactly what they want us to do".Today, on Radio 4, there was a "security expert" who was criticising Anonymous for RickRolling DAESH's webpages. His arguments were that there may be valuable intelligence on them and that they will just start new sites that we will need to try and find.
We can't be seen to dismiss every idea with the same replies. We need to grab the nettle to rip it out by its roots, even if it means being stung (possibly quite badly).
I really liked the wasp nest analogy earlier, but thought I'd use my own
.
.Derek Smith said:
We live in a country where the christian church is part of the establishment by law, but very few people actually believes the rubbish. They just say they do through peer pressure and expectations.
...or just not actually giving it much thought.It's interesting that even many otherwise intelligent church-goers don't appear to really believe what the Bible says or what their preacher might say, or they just don't question it as they know that it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
The Ten Commandments are a fairly pragmatic set of rules for an orderly society ...if they aren't taken too literally and enforced by the Thought Police.
Derek Smith said:
I've got the feeling that an open education system, without religious bias, could do the same for every religion.
Given time, I would hope so. I have to laugh at this `moderate Muslim` label that is being used to handle the middle ground Muslims with kid gloves. We have nearly convinced our stupid selves that there will be no ills from what is actually happening at the current moment in Europe. Belgium is as good as shut down thanks to ONE religion. Two Muslim politicians won municipal elections in Brussels not long ago. Afterward, Lhoucine Ait Jeddig and Redouane Ahrouch vowed to implement Sharia law in Belgium. These two electees have allowed the districts that (naturally) voted for them to deteriorate. One previously stated after being elected " I think we have to sensitize people, make them understand the advantages to having Islamic people and Islamic laws. And then it will be completely natural to have Islamic laws and we will become an Islamic state."
I cannot really believe that non Muslims are not concerned by this in our (at the moment) country.
Molenbeek in Brussels where the planning of the Paris attacks were hatched has nearly a 30% Islamic population and Belgiums liberal, fragmentented and frail government aren't on top of the 'Gigantic problem` here with Islam (according to Charles Michel).
These people (the non extreme moderate Muslim MPs)are very upfront and completely open in what they want. So why are we in denial?
Who should we believe in what is really happening and which way way are really heading? A Muslim who is fighting and willing to die for his cause carrying out EXACTLY what it says in the Quran? A moderate Muslim pushing for Sharia that reads the same pages of the same Quran. Or a non-Muslim politician who has never read anything in the Quran?
You decide.
I cannot really believe that non Muslims are not concerned by this in our (at the moment) country.
Molenbeek in Brussels where the planning of the Paris attacks were hatched has nearly a 30% Islamic population and Belgiums liberal, fragmentented and frail government aren't on top of the 'Gigantic problem` here with Islam (according to Charles Michel).
These people (the non extreme moderate Muslim MPs)are very upfront and completely open in what they want. So why are we in denial?
Who should we believe in what is really happening and which way way are really heading? A Muslim who is fighting and willing to die for his cause carrying out EXACTLY what it says in the Quran? A moderate Muslim pushing for Sharia that reads the same pages of the same Quran. Or a non-Muslim politician who has never read anything in the Quran?
You decide.
Edited by bigkeeko on Sunday 22 November 22:32
AJS- said:
So the response to Islamic terrorism is to cancel Christmas Carols and the Easter Holidays?
No, let's not give that a go.
Let's look first at the stated beliefs and history of the people who have waged war on us and see if there are any clues in that.
I've said nothing about any festival. What I've suggested does not point that way. I would agree that easter be rationalised, but that's personal. We could give that a go.No, let's not give that a go.
Let's look first at the stated beliefs and history of the people who have waged war on us and see if there are any clues in that.
I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, but anyway, let's look, as you said. There's Spain, France, the low countries at various times. Italy of course. The USA (as is now) rebelled, that's sort of waging war. There's the civil wars in Ireland. There's Scotland, mustn't forget them. With the exception of the norse, or at least the early ones, the normans were more or less christian, we've been at war with just about every christian country in the world, and they with us. I'm not sure of your point. Can you be clearer?
Interesting and sobering feature written by a former resident of Molenbeek
http://www.politico.eu/article/molenbeek-broke-my-...
http://www.politico.eu/article/molenbeek-broke-my-...
drivetrain said:
don'tbesilly said:
Interesting and sobering feature written by a former resident of Molenbeek
http://www.politico.eu/article/molenbeek-broke-my-...
Good read thanks, sobering indeed.http://www.politico.eu/article/molenbeek-broke-my-...
Belgian police have made 16 arrests in anti-terror raids but fugitive Salah Abdeslam remains at large, authorities have said.
At least 22 raids were carried out in Brussels and Charleroi, Belgian federal prosecutor Eric Van Der Sypt told a news conference.
No weapons or explosives were found during the searches.
Two shots were fired during an operation in Molenbeek, he said.
Brussels will remain on the highest level of terror alert following the attacks in Paris, Belgium's Prime Minister Charles Michel said on Sunday.
Universities, schools and the metro system will also remain shut, Mr Michel said.
At least 22 raids were carried out in Brussels and Charleroi, Belgian federal prosecutor Eric Van Der Sypt told a news conference.
No weapons or explosives were found during the searches.
Two shots were fired during an operation in Molenbeek, he said.
Brussels will remain on the highest level of terror alert following the attacks in Paris, Belgium's Prime Minister Charles Michel said on Sunday.
Universities, schools and the metro system will also remain shut, Mr Michel said.
Excession (Great nick btw)
I'm all for destroying IS physically and biologically. The intellectual and social battle still needs to be fought though because IS are not only a tiny proportion of Muslims, they're even a tiny proportion of radical Muslims, and only one grouping of violent radical Muslims. If we could kill every single member of IS tomorrow there would still be people throughout the world willing to kill and be killed in the name of radical Islam.
MC Bodge
But too many do. There is a reason why and it is, like it or not laid out very clearly in the Quran.
pingu
There is a reason that we keep playing into the hands of our enemies - we simply refuse to recognise them. We insist on seeing it through our own lens, and the answers always come back to inclusion, development and rational argument. How effective are any of those things likely to be on people who have excluded themselves from comfortable western liberal democracies to go and fight a holy war in the deserts of the middle east?
V6 Pushfit
Right and wrong by what measure? They are doing what they believe is right.
Derek
The point is that the violence we're discussing here comes from one particular religion. Violent Islam is far more menacing than any other religiously inspired movement here and now, and has been for some time. These people have a very clear agenda, which is laid out in some detail in the Quran, and backed up by a long period of Islamic law.
To equate this with the benign form of Christianity practiced by nearly all western Christians for quite a long time is at best an irrelevance.
I don't see any sense in which disestablishment of the CofE would be a blow to Islamic terrorism.
I'm all for destroying IS physically and biologically. The intellectual and social battle still needs to be fought though because IS are not only a tiny proportion of Muslims, they're even a tiny proportion of radical Muslims, and only one grouping of violent radical Muslims. If we could kill every single member of IS tomorrow there would still be people throughout the world willing to kill and be killed in the name of radical Islam.
MC Bodge
But too many do. There is a reason why and it is, like it or not laid out very clearly in the Quran.
pingu
There is a reason that we keep playing into the hands of our enemies - we simply refuse to recognise them. We insist on seeing it through our own lens, and the answers always come back to inclusion, development and rational argument. How effective are any of those things likely to be on people who have excluded themselves from comfortable western liberal democracies to go and fight a holy war in the deserts of the middle east?
V6 Pushfit
Right and wrong by what measure? They are doing what they believe is right.
Derek
The point is that the violence we're discussing here comes from one particular religion. Violent Islam is far more menacing than any other religiously inspired movement here and now, and has been for some time. These people have a very clear agenda, which is laid out in some detail in the Quran, and backed up by a long period of Islamic law.
To equate this with the benign form of Christianity practiced by nearly all western Christians for quite a long time is at best an irrelevance.
I don't see any sense in which disestablishment of the CofE would be a blow to Islamic terrorism.
Edited by AJS- on Monday 23 November 02:48
V6Pushfit said:
It doesn't have to be religion, just a basic understanding of right and wrong would go a very long way. I don't give a toss what religious beliefs anyone has but if they can't differentiate between the two that's when there's a risk of piss boiling.
With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff