Paris shooting and casualties ?
Discussion
AJS- said:
There's good reason to think that this reform will be as bloody and violent as was Christians, and there's some good reason to suspect it might not happen at all.
The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.
Birth rate with the Muslim community and immigration, Islam does not need to change to "fit in", it has time on its hands.The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.
Islam will and is retarding the development of democracy in the West by its backward views and "laws"
Stickyfinger said:
AJS- said:
There's good reason to think that this reform will be as bloody and violent as was Christians, and there's some good reason to suspect it might not happen at all.
The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.
Birth rate with the Muslim community and immigration, Islam does not need to change to "fit in", it has time on its hands.The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.
Islam will and is retarding the development of democracy in the West by its backward views and "laws"
I know which horse my money would be on if I could live long enough to take the winnings.
Yawn, not that old "they will out breed us" cobblers. When people move to developed countries, after a short while their birth rates drop to the level of the locals. High birth rates go with poverty and high infant mortality. World population figures show that with development comes lower birth rates. You only need lots of children if half of them die and the other half are needed to work from age ten.
Those of you who are paranoid about muslims (seeing them as a monolithic group, even though they are mega fragmented) are playing into the hands of the terrorists. The terrorists want you to be scared, and you are obligingly responding by being scared. We should be concerned about radicalisation, lack of integration, and about extremist views and actions, and should combat all of these, but all of the OMG panicking that these threads descend into is silly and pointless.
Those of you who are paranoid about muslims (seeing them as a monolithic group, even though they are mega fragmented) are playing into the hands of the terrorists. The terrorists want you to be scared, and you are obligingly responding by being scared. We should be concerned about radicalisation, lack of integration, and about extremist views and actions, and should combat all of these, but all of the OMG panicking that these threads descend into is silly and pointless.
Islam has been around for well over 1000 years. It has utterly failed to crush the West during that time. Islamic polities tried direct military conquest of Europe on several occasions and failed each time. It's over 500 years since they were chucked out of Spain, and their last pop at Vienna was defeated in 1683. The west now is richer and stronger than it was back then, and has more developed ideas and values, as well as lots of fancy kit, but you lot think it will just succumb meekly. Why do you glass half empty types value your own civilization so weakly?
Stickyfinger said:
AJS- said:
There's good reason to think that this reform will be as bloody and violent as was Christians, and there's some good reason to suspect it might not happen at all.
The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.
Birth rate with the Muslim community and immigration, Islam does not need to change to "fit in", it has time on its hands.The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.
Islam will and is retarding the development of democracy in the West by its backward views and "laws"
As does this - highlighting that birth rates are falling in Muslim countries too.
Breadvan72 said:
The terrorists want you to be scared, and you are obligingly responding by being scared. We should be concerned about radicalisation, lack of integration, and about extremist views and actions, and should combat all of these, but all of the OMG panicking that these threads descend into is silly and pointless.
and what you ignore is that all of the above problems become far more concerning with a Muslim proportion of the population of 20% rather than 5%It overwhelms the security services with sheer numbers.
Given that this is something we can tackle both through immigration policy and through welfare reform it seems very complacent to just sit back and assume they are all going to suddenly realise how much better our culture is to theirs.
The funny thing is people like me are described as being on the "bigoted" side of the argument. But I do not arrogantly assume that my own culture is so massively superior that everyone will adopt it within a generation of setting foot in Europe. My own culture is best for me. Those who value their own traditions and religious fulfilment over western individualism will consider their culture superior.
rscott said:
In response to the 'outbreeding' claims - this article by Channel 4 does a pretty decent job of debunking that.
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The proportion of children under 5 who are Muslim is already 10% so I am rather dubious about a study that claims that overall numbers are unlikely to top 10%..
It was also written before the current migrant wave and also ignores the political impact of a larger Muslim electorate.
Muslims are being casitgated for not apparently doing enough to denounce IS. Yet, when they do what they can, this is barely recognised.
It's like back in the day when the Irish in general were harassed for the actions of the IRA (and I don't mean just during "The Troubles" period), and for not doing enough in their communities to stop them. The place became quite a cold house for the Irish and such marginalisation only served to fuel the problem.
Europe is becoming a very cold house for Muslims. Qualifying terms like "moderate" Muslims must really grate the general Muslim population. The "Je Suis Charlie" b
ks too. Maintaining this marginalisation and passing the buck onto regular people will only antagonise further and make the problem worse.
It's like back in the day when the Irish in general were harassed for the actions of the IRA (and I don't mean just during "The Troubles" period), and for not doing enough in their communities to stop them. The place became quite a cold house for the Irish and such marginalisation only served to fuel the problem.
Europe is becoming a very cold house for Muslims. Qualifying terms like "moderate" Muslims must really grate the general Muslim population. The "Je Suis Charlie" b
ks too. Maintaining this marginalisation and passing the buck onto regular people will only antagonise further and make the problem worse.JuniorD said:
Europe is becoming a very cold house for Muslims. Qualifying terms like "moderate" Muslims must really grate the general Muslim population. The "Je Suis Charlie" bks too. Maintaining this marginalisation and passing the buck onto regular people will only antagonise further and make the problem worse.
Given what is contained with the writings of the "religion of peace" in truth only moderate Muslims are welcome here. Only those who don't regard it as the literal truth to follow in their lives have any hope of being able to integrate into a western society.ks too. Maintaining this marginalisation and passing the buck onto regular people will only antagonise further and make the problem worse.I suggest that our culture is objectively superior to a culture that applies Sharia "law" (the use of inverted commas is deliberate - I do not recognise so arbitrary and inhumane a set of rules as law). We should not be afraid to say that this is so. It's not racist to observe that people who have less developed forms of social and political organisation and cultural practices have systems and values that are inferior to those developed over time by more advanced cultures. This is not because the people are inherently stupid or inferior. Many of them have fallen for stupid and inferior ideas. They are people existing in history. They need not be imprisoned by history.
The catch up period need not, however, be measured in centuries, especially given modern media and technology. We should be revising our alliances with muslim polities that do not embrace modernity, and maximising support for the reformist elements in Islam (which do exist but don't get much coverage). Sadly, Cameron et al are so busy jumping up and down about a bombing campaign of dubious effectiveness that they are failing to to do anything about the regimes in Saudi, Iran and so forth. As for Turkey, the EU is now so panicky about migrants that it is doing a deal with the dodgy (but elected) regime there, and looking the other way while the regime supports IS and blasts Kurdish groups.
To those who say that we should do nothing and leave it to Islam to clean its own house, I suggest that self interest dictates that we should help Islam to clean house, as otherwise we all get stuck in the mud.
The catch up period need not, however, be measured in centuries, especially given modern media and technology. We should be revising our alliances with muslim polities that do not embrace modernity, and maximising support for the reformist elements in Islam (which do exist but don't get much coverage). Sadly, Cameron et al are so busy jumping up and down about a bombing campaign of dubious effectiveness that they are failing to to do anything about the regimes in Saudi, Iran and so forth. As for Turkey, the EU is now so panicky about migrants that it is doing a deal with the dodgy (but elected) regime there, and looking the other way while the regime supports IS and blasts Kurdish groups.
To those who say that we should do nothing and leave it to Islam to clean its own house, I suggest that self interest dictates that we should help Islam to clean house, as otherwise we all get stuck in the mud.
Don't quite get the link Zod?
StickyFinger
I'm not so fatalistic as that. Birth rates are falling across the world, Europe is just further down that road. Plus (as people seem to think I don't believe) most Muslims are happy for their religion to exist as a vague backdrop to their lives, rather than using it as a justification and motivation to end other people's lives. The danger and the hope lies at the margins. On the one hand the mad Imams, would be Caliphs and so forth. On the other genuine reformers.
The biggest reason that Islam is retarding democracy in the west is because the west is letting it, thinking that this is somehow tolerant and kind. Or cowardly believing that if we just accommodate this or that then all will be fine.
This is the result of two things - firstly having no idea about what Islam is, how it operates and what it's goals are. Secondly having no real belief in our own culture or values and thus no willingness to defend them.
Breadvan
It wasn't complacency which kept Islamism out of Europe.
We aren't the only ones who have advanced. It's not about a Muslim army marching across Europe subjugating everyone in it's path, but a slow encroaching imposition of Islamism by mostly political means, with the threat of violence through riots and terrorism, and false moderates like the Muslim Council of Britain as the peacemakers, telling us what we need to accommodate next.
Western culture is strong in certain respects, but only if we're willing to defend it.
StickyFinger
I'm not so fatalistic as that. Birth rates are falling across the world, Europe is just further down that road. Plus (as people seem to think I don't believe) most Muslims are happy for their religion to exist as a vague backdrop to their lives, rather than using it as a justification and motivation to end other people's lives. The danger and the hope lies at the margins. On the one hand the mad Imams, would be Caliphs and so forth. On the other genuine reformers.
The biggest reason that Islam is retarding democracy in the west is because the west is letting it, thinking that this is somehow tolerant and kind. Or cowardly believing that if we just accommodate this or that then all will be fine.
This is the result of two things - firstly having no idea about what Islam is, how it operates and what it's goals are. Secondly having no real belief in our own culture or values and thus no willingness to defend them.
Breadvan
It wasn't complacency which kept Islamism out of Europe.
We aren't the only ones who have advanced. It's not about a Muslim army marching across Europe subjugating everyone in it's path, but a slow encroaching imposition of Islamism by mostly political means, with the threat of violence through riots and terrorism, and false moderates like the Muslim Council of Britain as the peacemakers, telling us what we need to accommodate next.
Western culture is strong in certain respects, but only if we're willing to defend it.
AJS- said:
It's not about a Muslim army marching across Europe subjugating everyone in it's path, but a slow encroaching imposition of Islamism by mostly political means, with the threat of violence through riots and terrorism, and false moderates like the Muslim Council of Britain as the peacemakers, telling us what we need to accommodate next.
Like this? http://order-order.com/2015/11/30/labour-hold-anot...Or the school nurses being intimidated by locals who are being intimidated by members of the Muslim community for trying to inoculated children against flu? (The vaccine contains pig gelatine.)
http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/Muslim-children-miss-f...
You can hunt around and find lots of scare stories about pig this and headscarf that. Some will be true, some will be made up or exaggerated, but, in daily life, how much creeping Islamification affects the average European punter? I get as irritated as the next white liberal feminist-minded male when I see a woman with a veiled face, but that doesn't really impact on my life. And, no, I don't spend all my time in some protected enclave, and I do know what it's like in Bradford. I was there just the other week. What a dump.
BTW, for those who see all muslims as the same, R4 yesterday had a feature on Syrian refugees who have been placed in Bradford. They aren't mad keen on it, as the Syrians intervuewed appeared (inferentially at least) to be modern in their views and they also find that their English language skills develop too slowly because not enough English is spoken in the areas where they live. I don't think, BTW, that a refugee should not be able to moan a bit about where he or she ends up, and the people interviewed were positive about being in the UK and keen to get on with jobs and businesses and so on (one reason for feeling held back by being stuck in a rainy version of Pakistan). Being a refugee isn't fun, I imagine.
There is much to be concerned about, but I think that some of you need to narrow the muzzles of your scatterguns a bit.
BTW, for those who see all muslims as the same, R4 yesterday had a feature on Syrian refugees who have been placed in Bradford. They aren't mad keen on it, as the Syrians intervuewed appeared (inferentially at least) to be modern in their views and they also find that their English language skills develop too slowly because not enough English is spoken in the areas where they live. I don't think, BTW, that a refugee should not be able to moan a bit about where he or she ends up, and the people interviewed were positive about being in the UK and keen to get on with jobs and businesses and so on (one reason for feeling held back by being stuck in a rainy version of Pakistan). Being a refugee isn't fun, I imagine.
There is much to be concerned about, but I think that some of you need to narrow the muzzles of your scatterguns a bit.
Breadvan72 said:
You can hunt around and find lots of scare stories about pig this and headscarf that...
I think the issue with the problem is it is, at the fringes, iterative and trivial. Only in time is the full effect perceived.I can well imagine that there are parts of the UK which immigrants and assylum seekers cannot believe exist; enclaves of places they thought they'd chose to avoid in electing to live in modern Britain.
Breadvan72 said:
I suggest that our culture is objectively superior to a culture that applies Sharia "law" (the use of inverted commas is deliberate - I do not recognise so arbitrary and inhumane a set of rules as law). We should not be afraid to say that this is so. It's not racist to observe that people who have less developed forms of social and political organisation and cultural practices have systems and values that are inferior to those developed over time by more advanced cultures. This is not because the people are inherently stupid or inferior. Many of them have fallen for stupid and inferior ideas. They are people existing in history. They need not be imprisoned by history.
To those who say that we should do nothing and leave it to Islam to clean its own house, I suggest that self interest dictates that we should help Islam to clean house, as otherwise we all get stuck in the mud.
I would agree that our culture is superior but that is because I am a product of that culture.To those who say that we should do nothing and leave it to Islam to clean its own house, I suggest that self interest dictates that we should help Islam to clean house, as otherwise we all get stuck in the mud.
We need to recognise that we call a "western" culture has evolved over time. Starting with the collection of nation states in western Europe and then spreading out to their colonies. Whether that be tolerance of differing religions, belief in freedom of press, the rule of law and so forth. Someone from a different cultural background does not automatically accept those values when they enter Europe, or even their children and grand children.
Even amongst the rest of society acceptance of these values is not total and I would argue that anyone who is an ardent Communist rejects these values just as much as does radical Islam and the argument for free speech has to be fought and won every generation as can be seen in our own university campuses today with their increasingly curtailed debates.
In the battle of ideas liberal western values came very close to being destroyed by the twin extremes of Fascism and Communism. So the lesson of history is not complacency but constant vigilance for ideas that threaten our values. Extremist gunmen attract all the attention but far more worrying is the large chunk of Muslims who seek to achieve an Islamic state by peaceful means. Such a state is just as incompatible with western liberal values as that of Communism or Fascism. It is this ideology that is the underpinning for such violence and shows what nonsense calling this a tiny minority of Muslims is.
The solution does have to come from within Islam and our own priority needs to be removing ourselves from the frontlines as much as possible, by limiting the growth of the overall Muslim population.
This does not mean we take no part but should help out with humanitarian aid where required and provide assistance to those whose values accord with our own but require the means to fight to defend themselves and reform their societies.
That is just whataboutism, and whataboutism is always a rubbish argument.
Russia is the passed master of whataboutism, although it is a game that all can play. Last week I did a case about BoJo allegedly clamping down on the right to free protest in Parliament Square (I was BoJo, result of case not yet in). The UK news media didn't seem to give a toss about the story, but the Russian media were mad keen on it. Because whatboutism.
Russia is the passed master of whataboutism, although it is a game that all can play. Last week I did a case about BoJo allegedly clamping down on the right to free protest in Parliament Square (I was BoJo, result of case not yet in). The UK news media didn't seem to give a toss about the story, but the Russian media were mad keen on it. Because whatboutism.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 30th November 13:45
Breadvan72 said:
That is just whataboutism, and whataboutism is always a rubbish argument.
Russia is the passed master of whataboutism, although it is a game that all can play. Last week I did a case about BoJo allegedly clamping down on the right to free protest in Parliament Square (I was BoJo, result of case not yet in). The UK news media didn't seem to give a toss about the story, but the Russian media were mad keen on it. Because whatboutism.
then you must love RT then.Russia is the passed master of whataboutism, although it is a game that all can play. Last week I did a case about BoJo allegedly clamping down on the right to free protest in Parliament Square (I was BoJo, result of case not yet in). The UK news media didn't seem to give a toss about the story, but the Russian media were mad keen on it. Because whatboutism.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 30th November 13:45
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