"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"

[chris watton]

blindswelledrat said:

My view could not be more middle of the road on this issue.

...Only in your mind.

[don4l]

blindswelledrat said:

I do not see the benefit in taking the literal interpretation of 1000 year old words and blanket applying them to uk muslims.

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

[TTwiggy]

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Surely the fact that Islam is splintered into various sects would suggest that they can and do?

[AJS-]

Oh the sun lit uplands of the middle ground. If something is wrong then being in the middle of the road about it is also wrong.

My view is that Islam as practiced and understood is very dangerous in the way that fascism was dangerous. That doesn't mean that all 1.6bn Muslims are terrorists or bad people. It means that the institutions and culture surrounding it need deep rooted. And that our response to the threat it poses requires a deeper understanding of it.

Feel free to dispute my understanding of it (though you have already said you have no interest in it anyway), or my diagnosis or my approach.

Simply calling me racist and claiming the middle ground as though this was somehow automatically reasonable and correct is nonsensical.

[don4l]

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Surely the fact that Islam is splintered into various sects would suggest that they can and do?

It might equally suggest that there are various versions of the Koran.

[TTwiggy]

don4l said:

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Surely the fact that Islam is splintered into various sects would suggest that they can and do?

It might equally suggest that there are various versions of the Koran.

I don't think there are. Maybe AJS could tell us?

[charlie7777]

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Surely the fact that Islam is splintered into various sects would suggest that they can and do?

It might equally suggest that there are various versions of the Koran.

I don't think there are. Maybe AJS could tell us?

Here is one link.

http://answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

[2hoots]

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Surely the fact that Islam is splintered into various sects would suggest that they can and do?

It might equally suggest that there are various versions of the Koran.

I don't think there are. Maybe AJS could tell us?

There are various 'interpretations' of what it is saying.

But that's just a get-out-of-jail-free card for the religious. Same with the bible.

[Alpinestars]

AJS, serious question for you.

How many muslims do you know well enough to know what their views of ISIS are, not of whether they want Sharia law, which encompases all sorts of things/views/differences, but of ISIS?

I think this is far more important than constantly quoting the Quran, because as everyone knows, it's a version of the other Abrahamic religions, all of which advocate killing in certain circumstances. What is important is whether the Muslims you come across day to day, would be willing to support the killing of innocent people, ie, it's about conduct and not just about the book which has been given to them.

Real life experiences please, not quotes hearsay or polls.

Thanks

[don4l]

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

TTwiggy said:

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Surely the fact that Islam is splintered into various sects would suggest that they can and do?

It might equally suggest that there are various versions of the Koran.

I don't think there are. Maybe AJS could tell us?

I've just done a little research. It appears that there are few, if any, religous differences between the various sects. The main difference seems to centre on religous leadership. Shia muslims also reject some of the Hadiths that are central to the Sunnis.

They all use the same Koran.

[AJS-]

As I understand things...

The difference between Sunni and Shia goes back to the rightful successor to Mohammed rather than any deep theological difference. As far as I can tell most of the other sects and sub-sects relate more to power struggles than an strong differences of interpretation, though different cultures have emerged and different jurisprudence has evolved.

Wahabism is fairly modern (18th c) and can be pretty much viewed as the puritans. A very austere and severe practice of the same religion.

They all use the same basic Quran but there is no fully authorative version of it because it was all oral and versions written at the time were scattered about, so the search goes on for ever more ancient manuscripts. However AIUI you can't just rewrite a nicer version of it or second guess what was really meant by it because it's the words as revealed to Mohammed that give it it's authority.

There were some pages found in Birmingham recently which possibly predate Mohammed. This lends a bit of weight to the (fairly peripheral) idea that Mohammed was more a kind of embellished uber warlord like King Arthur, cobbled together from numerous famous victories for to add some religious zeal to the armies who it was preached to later. Or from pre-existing texts that Mohammed adapted to suit his political and military ends.


...With the qualification that knowing anything much about 7th century Arabia is very difficult because it is very scantly recorded and obviously now very political. Everyone has their own agenda and presents what they want how they want.

[AJS-]

Alpinestars said:

AJS, serious question for you.

How many muslims do you know well enough to know what their views of ISIS are, not of whether they want Sharia law, which encompases all sorts of things/views/differences, but of ISIS?

I think this is far more important than constantly quoting the Quran, because as everyone knows, it's a version of the other Abrahamic religions, all of which advocate killing in certain circumstances. What is important is whether the Muslims you come across day to day, would be willing to support the killing of innocent people, ie, it's about conduct and not just about the book which has been given to them.

Real life experiences please, not quotes hearsay or polls.

Thanks

Fair enough.

I have spoken a bit with Muslims about this but usually found it quite an awkward subject. I haven't met any who would support IS, or at least admit to it. That is an insanely small faction and they probably wouldn't be talking to me.

I had a fairly casual girlfriend many years ago who was of Iraqi Jewish origin but whose family had converted to Islam. She was a curious individual caught between oppressed minority, secular westerner and some time devoutish Muslim. She was batst crazy in other ways but achingly beautiful and gave me some interesting insights.

I have had email exchanges with some reformist Muslims who have helped me and corrected me on certain points and given me a perspective that actually Muslims are oppressed by Islam much as Germans were oppressed by fascism but it can't be so easily throw out because it's deeply ingrained in their culture.

I have talked at great length with an Iranian man who renounced Islam and now lives in exile. He was a very minor political activist as a student in the 1980s and was basically faced with leaving or being killed.


So there you go. I don't claim to be a world authority on it and am quite open to being shown a different interpretation. But I am also fairly confident to say that there are deep rooted issues in the religion itself which can't be simply dismissed as symptoms of political or economic grievances.

[Alpinestars]

AJS- said:

Alpinestars said:

AJS, serious question for you.

How many muslims do you know well enough to know what their views of ISIS are, not of whether they want Sharia law, which encompases all sorts of things/views/differences, but of ISIS?

I think this is far more important than constantly quoting the Quran, because as everyone knows, it's a version of the other Abrahamic religions, all of which advocate killing in certain circumstances. What is important is whether the Muslims you come across day to day, would be willing to support the killing of innocent people, ie, it's about conduct and not just about the book which has been given to them.

Real life experiences please, not quotes hearsay or polls.

Thanks

Fair enough.

I have spoken a bit with Muslims about this but usually found it quite an awkward subject. I haven't met any who would support IS, or at least admit to it. That is an insanely small faction and they probably wouldn't be talking to me.

I had a fairly casual girlfriend many years ago who was of Iraqi Jewish origin but whose family had converted to Islam. She was a curious individual caught between oppressed minority, secular westerner and some time devoutish Muslim. She was batst crazy in other ways but achingly beautiful and gave me some interesting insights.

I have had email exchanges with some reformist Muslims who have helped me and corrected me on certain points and given me a perspective that actually Muslims are oppressed by Islam much as Germans were oppressed by fascism but it can't be so easily throw out because it's deeply ingrained in their culture.

I have talked at great length with an Iranian man who renounced Islam and now lives in exile. He was a very minor political activist as a student in the 1980s and was basically faced with leaving or being killed.


So there you go. I don't claim to be a world authority on it and am quite open to being shown a different interpretation. But I am also fairly confident to say that there are deep rooted issues in the religion itself which can't be simply dismissed as symptoms of political or economic grievances.

Thanks for responding.

There are often differences in theory vs practice in most aspects of life. From my experiences, whilst the vast majority of Muslims will say the Quran is the word of god, they will not follow it to the letter eg, killing in some circumstances, keeping slaves etc etc. It's probably fair to say that they are generally more adherant to the book than say someone who follows the old testament, which is also said to be the word of god.

My point is that it's all well and good quoting the theory, but:

- as others have said whilst you may think the theory is black and white, the practice is not,
- the theory is not actually black and white, and like any other written texts/books/works, it's open to interpretation, as a simple example, the Quran does not advocate following any Hadith other than God's Hadith, ie, the quran, yet the vast majority of muslims will follow (man made) Hadiths. So in reality, very few actually follow the Quran.

[Countdown]

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Nope.

Most muslims don't even know what the Koran says [beyond "don't drink alcohol, don't do stuff which is bad for you, dont have naughty sex", and many choose to ignore that as well].

[Zod]

AJS- said:

Wahabism is fairly modern (18th c) and can be pretty much viewed as the puritans. A very austere and severe practice of the same religion.

How can there be such a thing when you tell us that the Quran is clear and to be adhered to in full by all Muslims?

[AJS-]

Zod said:

AJS- said:

Wahabism is fairly modern (18th c) and can be pretty much viewed as the puritans. A very austere and severe practice of the same religion.

How can there be such a thing when you tell us that the Quran is clear and to be adhered to in full by all Muslims?

I suppose it gets diluted with culture, human nature and simple reality. It waxes and wanes in severity in line with the culture and mores of the time. Then some loon pops up at the right time pointing out this passage or that and shrewdly relating it to some current event or problem and it's all go.

In much the same way as various Christians sometimes pop up and latch onto some current concern.

Christians are probably no less susceptible to this, the difference is that the tendency to violence is far less pronounced in Christianity. Or even discouraged on the whole. In Islam it is right there and unambiguous in the big book which they, like most casually religious people, never really read.

[AJS-]

And no it doesn't always make sense or have rigorous logical consistency. No religion or it's practice does.

In Bangkok there's a sort of Arabic area just across Sukhumvit road from Soi Nana. One of the biggest, most garish red light zones in Sin City. It's not that unusual to see presumably Gulf Arabs walking past the bars in their dish-dashes having a good old look.

Funny to think that they could in theory have stoned a woman to death for sex before marriage before jetting off for a week in Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Zod]

AJS- said:

Zod said:

AJS- said:

Wahabism is fairly modern (18th c) and can be pretty much viewed as the puritans. A very austere and severe practice of the same religion.

How can there be such a thing when you tell us that the Quran is clear and to be adhered to in full by all Muslims?

I suppose it gets diluted with culture, human nature and simple reality. It waxes and wanes in severity in line with the culture and mores of the time. Then some loon pops up at the right time pointing out this passage or that and shrewdly relating it to some current event or problem and it's all go.

In much the same way as various Christians sometimes pop up and latch onto some current concern.

Christians are probably no less susceptible to this, the difference is that the tendency to violence is far less pronounced in Christianity. Or even discouraged on the whole. In Islam it is right there and unambiguous in the big book which they, like most casually religious people, never really read.

It wasn't a serious question, but one designed to show that, whatever the book says, the majority of people act more reasonably. An important point to make with people here claiming all Muslims are dangerous because their book tells them to kill apostates and infidels.

[Challo]

don4l said:

blindswelledrat said:

I do not see the benefit in taking the literal interpretation of 1000 year old words and blanket applying them to uk muslims.

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Its the same in all religions. Remember its your interpretation of what your reading. Christians have been doing it for years with the Bible. You just choose your bits which relate to you and your mindset.

[2hoots]

Challo said:

Its the same in all religions. Remember its your interpretation of what your reading. Christians have been doing it for years with the Bible. You just choose your bits which relate to you and your mindset.

Yep, even though God himself says that you are not to apply interpretations to the literal words of the bible.

Deuteronomy 13:1

Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.

If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries secretly to seduce you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt.

No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following.

You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slave-labour.