"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"

[don4l]

2hoots said:

Challo said:

Its the same in all religions. Remember its your interpretation of what your reading. Christians have been doing it for years with the Bible. You just choose your bits which relate to you and your mindset.

Yep, even though God himself says that you are not to apply interpretations to the literal words of the bible.

Deuteronomy 13:1

Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.

If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse whom you embrace, or your most intimate friend, tries secretly to seduce you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods," unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him; you must show him no pity, you must not spare him or conceal his guilt.

No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following.

You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slave-labour.

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. The Old Testament was not taken very seriously. The 10 commandments overruled everything. The 5th Commandment was "Thou shalt not kill". There were no ifs or buts. So, anything in the OT that suggested that death was an appropriate punishment was wrong.

Vengance could only be taken by God.

The muslim version of the 5th Commandment actually contains some exclusions. Clearly, given our shared heritage, the Catholic church decided to drop these exclusions at some point in the past.

[AJS-]

Zod
I'm not claiming all Muslims are anything, but the religion itself is, and there seems to be a significant number of followers who are motivated, organised and funded enough to cause huge problems.

Hoping that the current upswing in radicalism will just blow over is one approach. There have been times throughout history where it's been less radical. I'm still reading more about it, but it appears that the relatively quiet period in the 19th and early 20th centuries was a product of European powers being in the ascendency.


Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

[Guybrush]

AJS- said:

Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

Exactly, it's how the peaceful and welcoming people of the indigenous population behave that counts; sadly that welcoming attitude seems to be taken advantage of, such that imposition of what could be considered 'primitive' and thus incompatible culture is going to cause problems (as it has thousands of years ago). We've moved on since then.

[2hoots]

don4l said:

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. The Old Testament was not taken very seriously. The 10 commandments overruled everything. The 5th Commandment was "Thou shalt not kill".

That was the point of my post - the various religions pick and choose the parts of the Bible/Koran to suit even when it expressly forbids doing that.

When you pick the New Testament over the Old Testament you've already started the process of picking and choosing to arrive at the message you (or your chosen church) want to broadcast. It's a short step from there to choosing which verses in particular are doctrine and which aren't.

Edited by 2hoots on Thursday 26th November 11:32

[2hoots]

AJS- said:

Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

That's true today because we've neutered the Christian church here in the west. That isn't true of 500 years ago when Christianity was every bit as cruel and harsh as Islamic fundamentalism is today. It's only a timing difference really.

[don4l]

Countdown said:

don4l said:

Are muslims free to cherry pick the Koran?

I was under the impression that all of the Koran was the Word of God, and therefore not open to question. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this.

Nope.

Most muslims don't even know what the Koran says [beyond "don't drink alcohol, don't do stuff which is bad for you, dont have naughty sex", and many choose to ignore that as well].

Thanks for your answer. This highlights a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam.

Perhaps most muslims are not familiar with the finer details of the Koran, but clearly, some people in the UK are. Some of them have gone to Syria, and some have been plotting mischief here.

I worry about what is being taught in some religous schools. Having had a Catholic education, I am not at all concerned about what goes on in christian schools. We were taught the difference between right and wrong. We were not encouraged to do anything illegal.

This is the nub of the issue. There are parts of the Koran that encourage illegal activities. What we (non-muslims) don't know is "How many people support these activities?".

[Zod]

2hoots said:

AJS- said:

Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

That's true today because we've neutered the Christian church here in the west. That isn't true of 500 years ago when Christianity was every bit as cruel and harsh as Islamic fundamentalism is today. It's only a timing difference really.

but, as others have pointed out, the tyranny against the Christian church took place against a background of ignorance with no mass communication. The world is very different today.Even in the developing world, the internet is almost everywhere.

[2hoots]

Zod said:

2hoots said:

AJS- said:

Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

That's true today because we've neutered the Christian church here in the west. That isn't true of 500 years ago when Christianity was every bit as cruel and harsh as Islamic fundamentalism is today. It's only a timing difference really.

but, as others have pointed out, the tyranny against the Christian church took place against a background of ignorance with no mass communication. The world is very different today.Even in the developing world, the internet is almost everywhere.

Agreed and I'm hopeful that in these technologically advanced times that the 500 year lag will be now be compressed into something considerably shorter but we are just at the start of that compression. It will still take time, these are just the 'growing pains' from a faith based ideology to a knowledge based one but you can't go through that process without trauma and we are living through that now.

[AJS-]

2hoots said:

AJS- said:

Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

That's true today because we've neutered the Christian church here in the west. That isn't true of 500 years ago when Christianity was every bit as cruel and harsh as Islamic fundamentalism is today. It's only a timing difference really.

There are a few important differences.

The barbarism in the OT is descriptive of events. The Quran is explicitly prescriptive, telling devout Muslims how to wage jihad and how to subjugate non believers.

Perhaps more importantly still, there is a strong tradition of Islamic scholars and centuries of Islamic jurisprudence backing this up from the birth of the religion through to the present day. There is no real consistent practice of violence explicitly guided by biblical commands.

Islam was largely neutered with the fall of the Ottoman empire and the abolition of the last Caliphate in 1924. Then the rise of the more secular Arab nationalist movements. This is the other important difference though. When these movements started to falter for one reason or another they reverted to more radical Islam. When they had some sort of a reformation people started to study the Quran in greater depth and take it more literally. Backed with Saudi oil money and angered by Israel they turned to the book and found not prohibitions on killing or exhortations to tolerance and moderation but a manifesto to destroy and subjugate your enemy at any cost.


And worth pointing out that I'm not attacking Islam as compared with my superior Christianity. In so far as I'm attacking it at all. I'm an atheist, with only the very loosest Christian upbringing and a smattering of Jewish blood which counts for nothing. I am trying to understand the religion itself and why it appears to drive people to violence so regularly.

[TTwiggy]

AJS- said:

I am trying to understand the religion itself and why it appears to drive people to violence so regularly.

Have you considered the possibility that it doesn't, and that what is driving people to violence is the much older 'religion' of power? I'm not claiming that Islam isn't used as a rallying call, but power/politics seems to be the main driver to me.

The most peaceful person I've ever known was also a devout Muslim. Where was he going wrong?

[AJS-]

TTwiggy said:

AJS- said:

I am trying to understand the religion itself and why it appears to drive people to violence so regularly.

Have you considered the possibility that it doesn't, and that what is driving people to violence is the much older 'religion' of power? I'm not claiming that Islam isn't used as a rallying call, but power/politics seems to be the main driver to me.

The most peaceful person I've ever known was also a devout Muslim. Where was he going wrong?

Yes I have. And that was pretty much my guiding assumption until I started to look into it further, relatively recently.

[2hoots]

AJS- said:

The barbarism in the OT is descriptive of events. The Quran is explicitly prescriptive, telling devout Muslims how to wage jihad and how to subjugate non believers.

Descriptive or prescriptive the result is the same. Taking subjugation as your theme, God fearing/Church attending Christians in the Southern states were entirely comfortable with slavery. You could even argue that they were not dissuaded from the rape of slaves as well. Should they have opened the pages of their bible they would have found many instances of 'the almighty' actually encouraging it. You can also trace those beliefs back to bible and what it doesn't say, Slavery not being one of God's commandments for instance whilst envy of your neighbour made the top 10.

Both the Koran and the Bible are morally repugnant essays.

[AJS-]

2hoots
I'm not defending or promoting Christianity or the bible. The notable difference is the militancy of Islam at the moment. I believe that's worth looking at in it's own right rather than simply assuming it's basically the same thing and the violence done in it's name is a purely political phenomenon.

[TTwiggy]

AJS- said:

2hoots
I'm not defending or promoting Christianity or the bible. The notable difference is the militancy of Islam at the moment. I believe that's worth looking at in it's own right rather than simply assuming it's basically the same thing and the violence done in it's name is a purely political phenomenon.

And yet Muslim families have been living in this country for generations with no problem at all. Do you think they've only recently found the 'nasty' bits of their book?

[e21Mark]

TTwiggy said:

AJS- said:

2hoots
I'm not defending or promoting Christianity or the bible. The notable difference is the militancy of Islam at the moment. I believe that's worth looking at in it's own right rather than simply assuming it's basically the same thing and the violence done in it's name is a purely political phenomenon.

And yet Muslim families have been living in this country for generations with no problem at all. Do you think they've only recently found the 'nasty' bits of their book?

With plenty of atrocities being carried out, in central Africa, in the name of Christianity. It all comes down to interpretation and perspective really. The vast majority of the world's Muslims are against ISIS and fellow Muslims are their most common victims and biggest enemies. The world's major Islamic religious authorities regularly condemn ISIS, as do Muslim-majority states and ISIS has declared war on these states.

Religions are big and diverse, and people get out of them what they bring into them. For ISIS, it's an obsession with bringing about the apocalypse and reviving medieval social norms, and with brutally punishing any perceived religious violation. But the vast majority of Muslims reject this interpretation of Islam and believe an interpretation that preaches peace and tolerance/co-existence. It simply does not make sense to blame Islam for ISIS. Mind you, we can't pretend, as some in the US government do, that ISIS has "nothing" to do with Islam.

[AJS-]

This is getting very circular.

As far back as the late 80s there were bookshops bombed for selling the Satanic Verses.

It isn't that all Muslims are permanently engaged in all out war.

[TTwiggy]

AJS- said:

This is getting very circular.

As far back as the late 80s there were bookshops bombed for selling the Satanic Verses.

It isn't that all Muslims are permanently engaged in all out war.

But even an 'apologist' would have to accept that it's rather more fruity right now. Why is this? The book hasn't changed.

[Rovinghawk]

don4l said:

The 5th Commandment was "Thou shalt not kill". There were no ifs or buts. So, anything in the OT that suggested that death was an appropriate punishment was wrong.

So............ the bible is the word of god & must be taken at face value with zero 'interpretation'.

One part says do it, one part says don't do it. You must comply with both instructions.

Conclusion: the bible is flawed & can therefore be disregarded.

[chris watton]

Rovinghawk said:

Conclusion: the bible is flawed & can therefore be disregarded.

As is the case for all religious teachings, I guess.

Although, AFAICT, most people use the Bible as a moral guide, knowing the difference between right and wrong nothing more.

[AJS-]

In a British or global context?

Either way there's no single cause.

The tripling of the Muslim population in Britain (and similar in other western countries) has created very isolated and closed communities which foster mistrust.

The continual funding from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere pushing a more radical form of Islam.

Our disjointed foreign policy in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere and quite a shrewd spin put on this.

Our general cultural insecurity and apologetic liberal guilt. Small victories have emboldened them.