"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"

[don4l]

Rovinghawk said:

don4l said:

The 5th Commandment was "Thou shalt not kill". There were no ifs or buts. So, anything in the OT that suggested that death was an appropriate punishment was wrong.

So............ the bible is the word of god & must be taken at face value with zero 'interpretation'.

One part says do it, one part says don't do it. You must comply with both instructions.

Conclusion: the bible is flawed & can therefore be disregarded.

Yes.

[2hoots]

chris watton said:

As is the case for all religious teachings, I guess.

Although, AFAICT, most people use the Bible as a moral guide, knowing the difference between right and wrong nothing more.

I'm not so sure. If Joe (or Jessica) Public has a moral conundrum to solve I suspect the very last thing he or she does is trawl through the pages of the Bible in search of an appropriate answer. I'd argue most people who use the bible on a day-to-day basis do so merely to reinforce their pre-existing faith or bias.

The only people who bother reading the Gospels as their SatNav to life are those who are already indoctrinated, the rest of us innately know right from wrong (Don't Steal, Murder etc).

[Rovinghawk]

chris watton said:

AFAICT, most people use the Bible as a moral guide, knowing the difference between right and wrong nothing more.

Slavery is ok, poly-cotton clothing is wrong? That's what it says in Leviticus. (This is the absolute word of the god, remember.)

Seems a funny set of values IMO.

[chris watton]

2hoots said:

chris watton said:

As is the case for all religious teachings, I guess.

Although, AFAICT, most people use the Bible as a moral guide, knowing the difference between right and wrong nothing more.

I'm not so sure. If Joe (or Jessica) Public has a moral conundrum to solve I suspect the very last thing he or she does is trawl through the pages of the Bible in search of an appropriate answer. I'd argue most people who use the bible on a day-to-day basis do so merely to reinforce their pre-existing faith or bias.

The only people who bother reading the Gospels as their SatNav to life are those who are already indoctrinated, the rest of us innately know right from wrong (Don't Steal, Murder etc).

Perhaps I should have prefaced my comment with 'For those that are inclined'

I have said a few times on here over the years that, it seems we are regressing. There was a time when religion was but a nostalgic memory, it seemed that we had moved on from this - I always assumed we were more 'enlightened', post religion. Now, that void seems to be filling with another, which I think will be detrimental to a progressive and open society.

Could be wrong, though...

[AJS-]

Does any Christian take the OT as an instruction manual?

[don4l]

Rovinghawk said:

chris watton said:

AFAICT, most people use the Bible as a moral guide, knowing the difference between right and wrong nothing more.

Slavery is ok, poly-cotton clothing is wrong? That's what it says in Leviticus. (This is the absolute word of the god, remember.)

Seems a funny set of values IMO.

I was never taught that slavery was OK. Quite the opposite in fact. We were taught that God created us all in His image, and all life was sacred.

I told you just 2 posts before that the OT was not taken literally, apart from the 10 Commandments.

We were taught that God created the Earth in 6 days. However the same teacher also taught us about evolution. The 6 days stuff was just to keep it simple for our uneducated ancestors.

[2hoots]

AJS- said:

Does any Christian take the OT as an instruction manual?

Are the Ten Commandments part of Christian doctrine?

Are they from the OT?

[SlipStream77]

AJS- said:

Does any Christian take the OT as an instruction manual?

It's a good question, I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.

I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?

The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.

He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.

[Troubleatmill]

I posted this in another thread... but it is worth mentioning.

Perseus was born of a virgin
Buddha was born of a virgin
Catlicus was born of a virgin
Huitzilpochtli was born of a virgin
Attis was born of a virgin
Krishna was born of a virgin
Horus was born of a virgin
Mercury was born of a virgin
Romulus was born of a virgin
Ghengis Khan was born of a virgin


Anyone notice a trend?
Does it not make you think... hang on a minute....

[longblackcoat]

AJS- said:

Does any Christian take the OT as an instruction manual?

Well, there's the Christadelphians for certain - they believe that, in its original form the Bible is literally the word of God and as such is error free; later editions which differ from the original is due to errors of transcription or translation. Other branches of Christianity take the same view.

More worryingly, a 2011 Gallup survey reported that three in 10 Americans interpret the Bible literally, saying it is the actual word of God.

So that sounds like a shedload of people to me.

[chris watton]

don4l said:

Rovinghawk said:

chris watton said:

AFAICT, most people use the Bible as a moral guide, knowing the difference between right and wrong nothing more.

Slavery is ok, poly-cotton clothing is wrong? That's what it says in Leviticus. (This is the absolute word of the god, remember.)

Seems a funny set of values IMO.

I was never taught that slavery was OK. Quite the opposite in fact. We were taught that God created us all in His image, and all life was sacred.

I told you just 2 posts before that the OT was not taken literally, apart from the 10 Commandments.

We were taught that God created the Earth in 6 days. However the same teacher also taught us about evolution. The 6 days stuff was just to keep it simple for our uneducated ancestors.

Nor was I. never during my time in school during the '70's and '80's was I told that slavery was OK in any form!

I was also taught about evolution, and Religious Studies was an optional class.

I guess I got most of my religious teachings from Ben Hur at Easter...

[Einion Yrth]

SlipStream77 said:

It's a good question, I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.

I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?

The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.

He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.

Matthew 10 said:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Yeah, a real charmer.

[Troubleatmill]

Einion Yrth said:

Yeah, a real charmer.

How he treats the Caanite woman in Matthew 21:22 through 21:27 is so filled with love and compassion.
Oh wait... no.. he treats her like st - and makes her beg him for help.

[2hoots]

SlipStream77 said:

I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.

It's pickey-choosey time again. Which 10 commandments do you believe in, there is more than 1 set?

Anyway, 3 of the first 10 are all concerned with obeying God (and you could argue 4) so that's 30 to 40% pissed up the wall already and we haven't even got out of the blocks.

[don4l]

The thread is wandering off topic.

I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".

Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...


At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-

"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."

However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.

There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.

[longblackcoat]

don4l said:

The thread is wandering off topic.

I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".

Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...


At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-

"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."

However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.

There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Above is the official website for the Westboro Baptist Church, a devoutly Christian organisation. Read it at your peril.

There are intolerant muppets in every religion, ones who use religious texts to push their own point of view or agenda. It's certainly not confined to Islam.

[Zod]

2hoots said:

Zod said:

2hoots said:

AJS- said:

Regarding Deuteronomy, there's plenty of horrible stuff in the bible but we don't have Christian fundamentalist terrorism or tyranny on anything like the scale that we have Islamic terrorism and tyranny presently.

That's true today because we've neutered the Christian church here in the west. That isn't true of 500 years ago when Christianity was every bit as cruel and harsh as Islamic fundamentalism is today. It's only a timing difference really.

but, as others have pointed out, the tyranny against the Christian church took place against a background of ignorance with no mass communication. The world is very different today.Even in the developing world, the internet is almost everywhere.

Agreed and I'm hopeful that in these technologically advanced times that the 500 year lag will be now be compressed into something considerably shorter but we are just at the start of that compression. It will still take time, these are just the 'growing pains' from a faith based ideology to a knowledge based one but you can't go through that process without trauma and we are living through that now.

My post should of course have read, "he tyranny of the Christian church!

[AJS-]

Interesting points re OT interpretations. Probably also worth pointing out that Islam has the same OT and accepts Moses as a prophet so the Deuteronomy stuff still applies.

From my loosely CofE school I was always led to treat them as parables.

The Quran is more like the NT. With war and beheading and a conspicuous lack of cheek turning and or forgiving.

If you don't want to take a white guy's word on the problems with Islam, Dr Zudhi Jasser has a good pop at Anjem Choudary here, from the stand point of a genuine reformist Muslim.

https://youtu.be/jjZCKQOKvoo

[SlipStream77]

Einion Yrth said:

SlipStream77 said:

It's a good question, I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.

I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?

The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.

He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.

Matthew 10 said:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Yeah, a real charmer.

It has to be read in the correct perspective. He's talking about the effect there will be when people start to have faith in Him. A Jewish elder for example would not take kindly to his son or daughter converting to this 'new' religion.
10:37 is in reference to what He stands for, He's the ultimate model of righteousness.

More detail here if you're interested..

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/10-34.htm

Troubleatmill said:

How he treats the Caanite woman in Matthew 21:22 through 21:27 is so filled with love and compassion.
Oh wait... no..

(Matthew 15) It does seem harsh at first, I can see that. This hopefully will make it clearer.

http://christianthinktank.com/qcrude.html

2hoots said:

It's pickey-choosey time again. Which 10 commandments do you believe in, there is more than 1 set?

All of them.

I think we're rather de-railing this thread now. Start a new topic if you want though.

[ClaphamGT3]

SlipStream77 said:

It's a good question, I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.

I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?

The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.

He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.

I would agree with this; the word of God that guides every Christian is that set out in the synoptic gospels