"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"
Discussion
e21Mark said:
The less tolerant we are of moderate Muslims, the more disenfranchised we make them, the more appealing we make an extremist Muslim state an attractive alternative.
How dare you come on here expressing sensible opinions. This is PH! We need to launch a 5th Crusade! Drive the Muslims into the sea! even the nice ones! That's the only way they will understand our culture of tolerance! 
TTmonkey said:
These disaffected young men you talk of are merely the cannon fodder sent by the people that control and direct the policy globally. Until this is recognised and acknowledged, nothing will change, as there will always be yet more disaffected young men that can be sent to do the bidding of the people that control and direct the movement.
This isn't a bunch of upset kids that want to cause problems. this is planned, directed, financed and controlled.
Quite. And the finance has come from the Gulf. This is a political problem as much as anything. This isn't a bunch of upset kids that want to cause problems. this is planned, directed, financed and controlled.
e21Mark said:
The less tolerant we are of moderate Muslims, the more disenfranchised we make them, the more appealing we make an extremist Muslim state an attractive alternative.
It's almost as though that was the whole purpose of the attack.But we wouldn't be so gullible as to fall for it, would we?
BOR said:
e21Mark said:
The less tolerant we are of moderate Muslims, the more disenfranchised we make them, the more appealing we make an extremist Muslim state an attractive alternative.
It's almost as though that was the whole purpose of the attack.But we wouldn't be so gullible as to fall for it, would we?
Einion Yrth said:
Many would/will. Expect some of the knuckle-draggers to create serious trouble for a completely unrelated group of muslims any time soon.
Agreed. Furthermore, Mrs Digga and I have a number of non-Muslim Indian friends and colleagues and one of the issues that has long concerned me is the mood of suspicion and division spilling over into their lives. One couple spent several years living and working in a city in Germany where, at the time, they felt very welcome and experienced no racial issues, but I do wonder how that might be in the current climate?Derek Smith said:
The problem exists. The answer is not, surely, to exacerbate the situation by posting xenophobic rants but dealing with the problem, coming up with solutions and pressuring those at the top to follow what we want.
The one thing the bigoted religious nutters fear is education. That is why they tend to stick their kids in their religious enclaves. We must remove publicly funded religious schools and have all kids educated to a specific syllabus which includes comparative religions. If the parents don't like it then the parents don't have to go to school.
We should respect everyone's rights to believe what they hell they want. If their weird ways do not conflict with modern morals then there is no problem. We should not ban religions but if their habits block the rights of anyone, then they should be stopped from doing it. How can one respect a belief that someone flew to the Moon on a horse? That all the graves in Israel and the dead rose again, that a meteor is holy, that a god is so partial as to have a chosen race?
Female and male children should, must, be treated the same up until they have the sense to make the decision for themselves if they want to opt for segregation and hatred of any of the long list of inferiors of the religionists.
Modern accepted morals must prevail in all schools.
Private schools must be required to teach comparative religion, to treat kids the same regardless of gender, and if they refuse then there are all sorts of concessions that can be withdrawn.
As ever we will not be able to educate every child, but if we get a high percentage then the tide will turn against the hatred of the bigots.
Moaning about what exists doesn't help. Wishing for an Eden that never was is pointless. Let's change the situation we are in for the better, and the betterment of children at risk of being indoctrinated.
Education is the great equaliser. The western catholic church limited education for centuries, even to their own workers, and that didn't turn out so well. So let's learn from that and ensure that we treat children as children and not as victims of stupids beliefs.
I don't disagree with anything you posted. Education is the main thing that keeps us out of the hands of tyrants of all kinds. However haven't several of the jihadists that have attacked in the UK and elsewere been highly educated and by implication highly intelligent.The one thing the bigoted religious nutters fear is education. That is why they tend to stick their kids in their religious enclaves. We must remove publicly funded religious schools and have all kids educated to a specific syllabus which includes comparative religions. If the parents don't like it then the parents don't have to go to school.
We should respect everyone's rights to believe what they hell they want. If their weird ways do not conflict with modern morals then there is no problem. We should not ban religions but if their habits block the rights of anyone, then they should be stopped from doing it. How can one respect a belief that someone flew to the Moon on a horse? That all the graves in Israel and the dead rose again, that a meteor is holy, that a god is so partial as to have a chosen race?
Female and male children should, must, be treated the same up until they have the sense to make the decision for themselves if they want to opt for segregation and hatred of any of the long list of inferiors of the religionists.
Modern accepted morals must prevail in all schools.
Private schools must be required to teach comparative religion, to treat kids the same regardless of gender, and if they refuse then there are all sorts of concessions that can be withdrawn.
As ever we will not be able to educate every child, but if we get a high percentage then the tide will turn against the hatred of the bigots.
Moaning about what exists doesn't help. Wishing for an Eden that never was is pointless. Let's change the situation we are in for the better, and the betterment of children at risk of being indoctrinated.
Education is the great equaliser. The western catholic church limited education for centuries, even to their own workers, and that didn't turn out so well. So let's learn from that and ensure that we treat children as children and not as victims of stupids beliefs.
As an aside, do you recall the Deren Brown's Heist episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaHbACoYNSA). He persuaded a bunch of intelligent and highly educated individuals to hold up a security guard carrying cash, now it's another level again to get people to go out and kill other people but education is not the only answer. Just a thought.
e21Mark said:
The less tolerant we are of moderate Muslims, the more disenfranchised we make them, the more appealing we make an extremist Muslim state an attractive alternative.
I get the sentiment and would agree. Defining what is moderate though seems a very big grey area. For example, the Muslim Council of Britain wrote off all the Trojan horse schools findings as just conservative Muslim behavior - nothing to see here. Was that all moderate behavior ? After the Charlie Hebdo massacre , you seemed to be a minority Muslim if you thought others had he right to mock religion with cartoons and actually said people in the UK should have this right. One of the few people to speak as a Muslim was Maajid Nawaz, who then of course got death threats and Muslims in his own Liberal ( something says they don't quite understand the name of their own political party ) trying to get him deselected as parliamentary candidate and silenced by even trying to stir up Muslims in Pakistan against him.
I'm sorry my reply contains actual questions which may require some thought and opinions, but I try not to write meaningless crap as per Bluebarge.
AJS- said:
e21Mark said:
The less tolerant we are of moderate Muslims, the more disenfranchised we make them, the more appealing we make an extremist Muslim state an attractive alternative.
Tolerant of what about Muslims though? Tolerant of radical clerics preaching Islamism? Tolerant of FGM? Honour killings? Sharia law?FGM is prevalent in many Christian countries and not something so be attributed solely to Islam. Just as women not being able to drive, or play an equal part in society, are things attributed to specific countries and not Muslims in general. Yes, in some countries women can't drive, yet in others there are female heads of state. Added to which, no two countries ruled by Muslims have the same system of law. Within Islam there are different sects who have different beliefs, some of them are minor differences, some of them major.
The article is not so much about the radical Muslims of isis but rather the general population and government of these nations are incompatible with LGBT. Even in moderate and western friendly Dubai where you could get away with being gay it is not a good idea to be open about it.
On the other hand its not necessarily Islam that is to blame on the matter, I have had discussions on trans issues with a Muslim friend and I was surprised by his viewpoint which was more accepting than AJS- is. So i think the hatred and punishments of LGBT comes from the same place as any other hate and discrimination, in that its basically mob behavior against a minority group who are different. So the question is not will Muslims come here and change the UK to be homophobic or will they come here and have the same viewpoint as us and follow the Koran with peace and tolerance which is what my Muslim friends tell me its all about.
On a side note it was quite interesting to watch him and a deeply christian friend discussing in an adversarial way their religions and from the sidelines see that they actually agree on so much stuff, unfortunately one thing they agree on is persecuting LGBT. In the UK although we are a Christian society we have somewhat left behind active participation and religious leaders have less influence, You only have to turn to the US to see that practicing Christians, when in the majority are not much more tolerant of LGBT (especially when it comes to T) than Muslims, and some of them would happily throw us off rooftops if the law allowed.
On the other hand its not necessarily Islam that is to blame on the matter, I have had discussions on trans issues with a Muslim friend and I was surprised by his viewpoint which was more accepting than AJS- is. So i think the hatred and punishments of LGBT comes from the same place as any other hate and discrimination, in that its basically mob behavior against a minority group who are different. So the question is not will Muslims come here and change the UK to be homophobic or will they come here and have the same viewpoint as us and follow the Koran with peace and tolerance which is what my Muslim friends tell me its all about.
On a side note it was quite interesting to watch him and a deeply christian friend discussing in an adversarial way their religions and from the sidelines see that they actually agree on so much stuff, unfortunately one thing they agree on is persecuting LGBT. In the UK although we are a Christian society we have somewhat left behind active participation and religious leaders have less influence, You only have to turn to the US to see that practicing Christians, when in the majority are not much more tolerant of LGBT (especially when it comes to T) than Muslims, and some of them would happily throw us off rooftops if the law allowed.
I wonder if some on here would be so tolerant if some of their family where blowing to pieces or shot to death.I'm all for tolerance but you either live here and intergrate and that means adopting our values and culture.
And if anybody doesn't like the way we live and go about our daily lives leave.I respect any religion Muslim Christians or non believers.That is your right.
People walking about covering their faces or preaching hate in certain mosque's that has to be stopped.Tolerance can only go so far.
And if anybody doesn't like the way we live and go about our daily lives leave.I respect any religion Muslim Christians or non believers.That is your right.
People walking about covering their faces or preaching hate in certain mosque's that has to be stopped.Tolerance can only go so far.
AJS- said:
This is what's particularly odd and contemptible about the pro-Islamist left. All the decent things 'the left' have stood for over the last century from female suffrage and women's rights to gay rights, racial equality, the fight against anti-semitism, racial and religious equality, self governance and the end of imperialism have all been thrown out. Radical Islam stands directly against every single one of them.
I think it's a form of cultural masochism. People with an essentially slave or subordinate mentality now have their freedom and they don't know what to do with it. It scares them. They now have to think for themselves, make moral judgements or drift around in a relativist quagmire clutching at fashionable ideas which later turn out to be wrong.
They hate the culture they have created and find the certainty and moral absolutism of radical Islam appealing. They can still have the same old enemy of the stodgy old conservative white men who disapprove. Their more repellent attitudes can be blamed on their poverty and lack of education, which is our fault. Their radical and violent tendencies towards us can be blamed on our support for Israel and our imperialism a century ago. The continued failure of many Muslims to integrate into secular western democracies is our fault because we're racist.
They couldn't possibly, with a very few exceptions, go back to the culture they hated and I don't suppose most people now would have any real working memory of life before the cultural revolution of the 1960s, nevermind before the post WW2 welfare boom, or the certainties of a bold and confident British empire, run by white protestants.
Nor should we look to go back to these things. They were already out of date when they were overthrown.
What we have failed to do is create or evolve any sort of alternative which is both inspiring and inclusive enough to really motivate people to defend it, let alone evangelise it or wish to see it spread in the wider world. Instead we have a sort of loose buffet of ideas about a welfare state which is already essentially collapsed, freedom of expression so long as it doesn't go too far or cause any real offence, multiculturalism which is fragmented and divisive and gives no central values which all people living here can be expected to share.
We 'tolerate' everything without really standing for anything.
To me, we have many things that are worth standing for. We have had them for centuries, but they have become tarnished by imperialism, militarism and national, religious and racial chauvinism of a long gone era, and we have essentially thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
This post makes a lot of sense ...I think it's a form of cultural masochism. People with an essentially slave or subordinate mentality now have their freedom and they don't know what to do with it. It scares them. They now have to think for themselves, make moral judgements or drift around in a relativist quagmire clutching at fashionable ideas which later turn out to be wrong.
They hate the culture they have created and find the certainty and moral absolutism of radical Islam appealing. They can still have the same old enemy of the stodgy old conservative white men who disapprove. Their more repellent attitudes can be blamed on their poverty and lack of education, which is our fault. Their radical and violent tendencies towards us can be blamed on our support for Israel and our imperialism a century ago. The continued failure of many Muslims to integrate into secular western democracies is our fault because we're racist.
They couldn't possibly, with a very few exceptions, go back to the culture they hated and I don't suppose most people now would have any real working memory of life before the cultural revolution of the 1960s, nevermind before the post WW2 welfare boom, or the certainties of a bold and confident British empire, run by white protestants.
Nor should we look to go back to these things. They were already out of date when they were overthrown.
What we have failed to do is create or evolve any sort of alternative which is both inspiring and inclusive enough to really motivate people to defend it, let alone evangelise it or wish to see it spread in the wider world. Instead we have a sort of loose buffet of ideas about a welfare state which is already essentially collapsed, freedom of expression so long as it doesn't go too far or cause any real offence, multiculturalism which is fragmented and divisive and gives no central values which all people living here can be expected to share.
We 'tolerate' everything without really standing for anything.
To me, we have many things that are worth standing for. We have had them for centuries, but they have become tarnished by imperialism, militarism and national, religious and racial chauvinism of a long gone era, and we have essentially thrown out the baby with the bathwater.
part of the problem is that you get people who hang on to discredited or obsolete ideologicaly points at every point, whether it;s religious fundamentalism of whatever professed faith that teaches hate for all others outside their sect or the Greerite Feminists and/or Lesbians who try to cause ructions in the LGBT community by claiming that Bisexual and or none gender binary people are some kind of traitors ...
AJS- said:
Tolerant of what about Muslims though? Tolerant of radical clerics preaching Islamism? Tolerant of FGM? Honour killings? Sharia law?
you do realise FGM and honour killings are not an "Islamic" problem? FGM is predominantly African and honour killings a world wide problem.Sharia Law is law based around Quranic and Muhammad's teaching, not including verdicts already passed, such as (always a favourite) the severing of limbs when caught stealing... or (another sure favourite) the stoning to death of people engaged in extra marital affairs. But these have conditions they have to fulfil before sentencing is enforced. It is not allowed to go around chopping peoples hands off or chucking a rock at your next door neighbour.
As for radical clerics... I have been going to mosques for the past 30 years and I have never met a radical preacher, or heard a radical sermon.
Maybe you should drop in to a mosque on a Friday around 1pm... check it out for yourself
WolfAir said:
Sharia Law is law based around Quranic and Muhammad's teaching, not including verdicts already passed, such as (always a favourite) the severing of limbs when caught stealing... or (another sure favourite) the stoning to death of people engaged in extra marital affairs. But these have conditions they have to fulfil before sentencing is enforced.
That really doesn't alter the fact that these are uncivilised, nay barbaric, punishments.Not read article, but this bit of OP is nail hitting head, IMHO
"The only conclusion that makes sense to me is that these SJW types don't actually care about any of the groups they claim to care about. They just say they care about them in order to signal their virtue, but only as long as there isn't another group they can pretend to care about which is higher up the Loony Left's Totem Pole".
"The only conclusion that makes sense to me is that these SJW types don't actually care about any of the groups they claim to care about. They just say they care about them in order to signal their virtue, but only as long as there isn't another group they can pretend to care about which is higher up the Loony Left's Totem Pole".
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