"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"
Discussion
Purity14 said:
longblackcoat said:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Above is the official website for the Westboro Baptist Church, a devoutly Christian organisation. Read it at your peril.
There are intolerant muppets in every religion, ones who use religious texts to push their own point of view or agenda. It's certainly not confined to Islam.
Try www.landoverbaptist.orgAbove is the official website for the Westboro Baptist Church, a devoutly Christian organisation. Read it at your peril.
There are intolerant muppets in every religion, ones who use religious texts to push their own point of view or agenda. It's certainly not confined to Islam.
They even have their own forum; http://www.landoverbaptist.net/forumindex.php
Its all rather interesting; but some people take it seriously.
longblackcoat said:
don4l said:
The thread is wandering off topic.
I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".
Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...
At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-
"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.
There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/ I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".
Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...
At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-
"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.
There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.
Above is the official website for the Westboro Baptist Church, a devoutly Christian organisation. Read it at your peril.
There are intolerant muppets in every religion, ones who use religious texts to push their own point of view or agenda. It's certainly not confined to Islam.
I put "Koran Homosexual" into Bing again, and the second site appears to be a copy of the first. The third site contains this:-
"In some of these countries, Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity carries the death penalty."
You seem to be suggesting that christians are as bad as muslims. You can prove your point by posting a list of 20 christian countries that execute homosexuals.
As an aside... What is your personal position on this subject? Do you think that homosexuals should be killed?
don4l said:
longblackcoat said:
don4l said:
The thread is wandering off topic.
I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".
Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...
At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-
"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.
There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/ I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".
Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...
At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-
"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.
There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.
Above is the official website for the Westboro Baptist Church, a devoutly Christian organisation. Read it at your peril.
There are intolerant muppets in every religion, ones who use religious texts to push their own point of view or agenda. It's certainly not confined to Islam.
I put "Koran Homosexual" into Bing again, and the second site appears to be a copy of the first. The third site contains this:-
"In some of these countries, Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity carries the death penalty."
You seem to be suggesting that christians are as bad as muslims. You can prove your point by posting a list of 20 christian countries that execute homosexuals.
As an aside... What is your personal position on this subject? Do you think that homosexuals should be killed?
Not going to play your game.
SlipStream77 said:
Einion Yrth said:
SlipStream77 said:
It's a good question, I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.
I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?
The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.
He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.
I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?
The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.
He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.
Matthew 10 said:
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Yeah, a real charmer.10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
I should cocoa.
longblackcoat said:
don4l said:
longblackcoat said:
don4l said:
The thread is wandering off topic.
I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".
Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...
At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-
"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.
There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/ I used Bing and searched "Koran homosexuality".
Here is the first site that comes up:-
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexualit...
At first I assumed that it was written by someone with a grudge against Islam. For example the following quotation from Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America:-
"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."
However, as I read on, I realised that the author appears to be a devout muslim.
There is much more in the link. I can see why the OP started this thread.
Above is the official website for the Westboro Baptist Church, a devoutly Christian organisation. Read it at your peril.
There are intolerant muppets in every religion, ones who use religious texts to push their own point of view or agenda. It's certainly not confined to Islam.
I put "Koran Homosexual" into Bing again, and the second site appears to be a copy of the first. The third site contains this:-
"In some of these countries, Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity carries the death penalty."
You seem to be suggesting that christians are as bad as muslims. You can prove your point by posting a list of 20 christian countries that execute homosexuals.
As an aside... What is your personal position on this subject? Do you think that homosexuals should be killed?
Not going to play your game.
I simply suggested an easy way to prove me wrong.
You decided that you couldn't be bothered. Or, were you unable to prove me wrong?
I'd really, really like to believe that the average muslim did not believe that homosexuals should not be thrown off multi-storey car parks. I'd also like to believe that muslims didn't believe that alultresses should not be physically punished.
Why can I not find a muslim who will prove me wrong?
Tell me that I am wrong.
Tell me that it is wrong to kill homosexuals.
don4l said:
I was never taught that slavery was OK. Quite the opposite in fact. We were taught that God created us all in His image, and all life was sacred.
I told you just 2 posts before that the OT was not taken literally, apart from the 10 Commandments.
We were taught that God created the Earth in 6 days. However the same teacher also taught us about evolution. The 6 days stuff was just to keep it simple for our uneducated ancestors.
It's either the true word of the god or it's not. It's not a buffet where you get to pick & choose.I told you just 2 posts before that the OT was not taken literally, apart from the 10 Commandments.
We were taught that God created the Earth in 6 days. However the same teacher also taught us about evolution. The 6 days stuff was just to keep it simple for our uneducated ancestors.
If you think that some of the word of that god can be ignored then fine, but don't then try to argue that the rest of it is important.
Personal opinion: man created that god in man's image. So much easier to relate to than gods like Ganesh.
Interesting little reflection of this debate that, so far as it's happening at all, we've ended up with SlipStream in the lion's den being asked to defend a religion which as far as I know hasn't had anyone stoned, beheaded or thrown off a building at all this year (?). And a persistent suspicion that anyone criticising or even investigating the one that has done rather a lot of this is some kind of bigot and racist.
Also before jumping too heavily on the bible as equally violent and holding this up as proof that Christianity is just as bad, it's worth noting that Muslims accept much of it anyway.
Moses (Torah), David (Psalms) and Jesus (Gospel) are also the word of God revealed to these prophets. They believe these became corrupted by man and Mohammed came to correct and clarify them. There doesn't seem to be much in Islamic texts or lae to suggest that they believe this corruption took the form of over emphasising the violence, intolerance and supremacism elements.
Moses (Torah), David (Psalms) and Jesus (Gospel) are also the word of God revealed to these prophets. They believe these became corrupted by man and Mohammed came to correct and clarify them. There doesn't seem to be much in Islamic texts or lae to suggest that they believe this corruption took the form of over emphasising the violence, intolerance and supremacism elements.
ClaphamGT3 said:
SlipStream77 said:
It's a good question, I'm a practising Christian and I disagree vehemently with parts of the OT, however, other parts are still totally valid, the Ten Commandments for example.
I can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?
The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.
He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.
I would agree with this; the word of God that guides every Christian is that set out in the synoptic gospelsI can totally understand why this appears strange - how can I hold the Bible in such regard when it contains contradictions?
The key to it is that as a Christian, it is the writings of the NT that take precident, particularly the words of Jesus.
He spoke of mercy, forgiveness and love - very much the opposite of the kind of thing found in books such as Leviticus.
The texts of Christianity are just as filled with hatey nonsense as are those of the other big faiths, and some people rely on the hatey stuff (for example to justify homohobia - see the Anglican churches in parts of Africa).
Lots of Christians just choose to ignore the hatey bits and go for the cuddly stuff. That's fine, as the texts are all man made anyway, but this practice of cherry picking robs the faiths of any claim to universality.
All Christians have to believe in the concepts of the fall of man and the redemption by Jesus, as if they don't believe in those things they can hardly claim to be Christians. If Jesus is your saviour, you have to ask what he was saving you from (the answer is: the irrational vengeance of another version of himself). These are hateful and inhumane concepts, as they posit that God would condemn a huge number of his created people to eternal torture because the first two of them broke a strange and arbitrary rule that commanded them no to know the difference between right and wrong.
The broader point here is that each of the big three Abrahamic faiths contains vile prescriptions for hatred. Both Christianity and Islam are death cults, as they favour the supposed afterlife over the transient life on Earth. Judaism is rather vague on the subject of an afterlife.
Many Christians, many Jews, and many Muslims either do not know about the hatey parts of their faiths or they do not follow those hatey bits. Islam has a mixture of very hatey bits and some cuddly bits as well. It's all very incoherent and confused - all these books were written by ignorant and superstitious men, not by great scholars.
Islam is very fragmented, just like the other faiths. There is is no one Islam, and many of the various Islams are inherently no more violent than the other big faiths. It so happens that at present various casual factors have come together to make prominent some ultra violent versions of Islam, just as various factors promoted ultra violent versions of Christianity in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.
The world would always have been better off without any of these confused and incoherent bundles of ideas.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 27th November 07:44
PS: note also the bizarre rescue mechanism that God uses to cancel his own edict of eternal damnation. He could just say "I have changed my mind, you are all forgiven", but instead he stages an elaborate performance in which a humanised version of himself is tortured to death. The point here is that the religion is a useful instrument for authority over others because it tells its followers that brutal suffering is legitimate and valuable. It enforces obedience. It opposes enjoyment of life, because life is just a preparation for what will follow.
Ask a mild and moderate Anglican about what he or she believes about the doctrine of salvation and you will rarely get any sort of straight answer, as the usually vague and benign tenets of that mildest form of religion stumble on the obstacle of the religion's foundational concept.
Ask a mild and moderate Anglican about what he or she believes about the doctrine of salvation and you will rarely get any sort of straight answer, as the usually vague and benign tenets of that mildest form of religion stumble on the obstacle of the religion's foundational concept.
Breadvan72 said:
You have both conveniently omitted the fact that your guy Jesus expressly endorsed the laws laid down in what we now call the Old Testament, which include allegedly Divine instructions to commit genocide, rape and enslavement of people whom the alleged God denominated as enemies of his chosen people. See Matthew 5: 17-18.
The texts of Christianity are just as filled with hatey nonsense as are those of the other big faiths, and some people rely on the hatey stuff (for example to justify homohobia - see the Anglican churches in parts of Africa).
Lots of Christians just choose to ignore the hatey bits and go for the cuddly stuff. That's fine, as the texts are all man made anyway, but this practice of cherry picking robs the faiths of any claim to universality.
All Christians have to believe in the concepts of the fall of man and the redemption by Jesus, as if they don't believe in those things they can hardly claim to be Christians. If Jesus is your saviour, you have to ask what he was saving you from (the answer is: the irrational vengeance of another version of himself). These are hateful and inhumane concepts, as they posit that God would condemn a huge number of his created people to eternal torture because the first two of them broke a strange and arbitrary rule that commanded them no to know the difference between right and wrong.
The broader point here is that each of the big three Abrahamic faiths contains vile prescriptions for hatred. Both Christianity and Islam are death cults, as they favour the supposed afterlife over the transient life on Earth. Judaism is rather vague on the subject of an afterlife.
Many Christians, many Jews, and many Muslims either do not know about the hatey parts of their faiths or they do not follow those hatey bits. Islam has a mixture of very hatey bits and some cuddly bits as well. It's all very incoherent and confused - all these books were written by ignorant and superstitious men, not by great scholars.
Islam is very fragmented, just like the other faiths. There is is no one Islam, and many of the various Islams are inherently no more violent than the other big faiths. It so happens that at present various casual factors have come together to make prominent some ultra violent versions of Islam, just as various factors promoted ultra violent versions of Christianity in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.
The world would always have been better off without any of these confused and incoherent bundles of ideas.
Do you think that the OP is being irrational with his fears?The texts of Christianity are just as filled with hatey nonsense as are those of the other big faiths, and some people rely on the hatey stuff (for example to justify homohobia - see the Anglican churches in parts of Africa).
Lots of Christians just choose to ignore the hatey bits and go for the cuddly stuff. That's fine, as the texts are all man made anyway, but this practice of cherry picking robs the faiths of any claim to universality.
All Christians have to believe in the concepts of the fall of man and the redemption by Jesus, as if they don't believe in those things they can hardly claim to be Christians. If Jesus is your saviour, you have to ask what he was saving you from (the answer is: the irrational vengeance of another version of himself). These are hateful and inhumane concepts, as they posit that God would condemn a huge number of his created people to eternal torture because the first two of them broke a strange and arbitrary rule that commanded them no to know the difference between right and wrong.
The broader point here is that each of the big three Abrahamic faiths contains vile prescriptions for hatred. Both Christianity and Islam are death cults, as they favour the supposed afterlife over the transient life on Earth. Judaism is rather vague on the subject of an afterlife.
Many Christians, many Jews, and many Muslims either do not know about the hatey parts of their faiths or they do not follow those hatey bits. Islam has a mixture of very hatey bits and some cuddly bits as well. It's all very incoherent and confused - all these books were written by ignorant and superstitious men, not by great scholars.
Islam is very fragmented, just like the other faiths. There is is no one Islam, and many of the various Islams are inherently no more violent than the other big faiths. It so happens that at present various casual factors have come together to make prominent some ultra violent versions of Islam, just as various factors promoted ultra violent versions of Christianity in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.
The world would always have been better off without any of these confused and incoherent bundles of ideas.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Friday 27th November 07:44
don4l said:
Do you think that the OP is being irrational with his fears?
I think that the generalised fear and suspicion of "Islam" and "Muslims" that we see in this thread and many similar threads are irrational. There is no one Islam and there is no monolithic group called Muslims. Most Muslims are not working for world domination. We should be concerned (not scared, but concerned) about the radical forms of Islam and how they operate in the Middle East and in developed societies. We should be concerned about lack of integration by some groups of migrants, and the preservation of repellent attitudes to women, gay people, and to liberal values in general. We should be bold about trumpeting and reinforcing our civilisational values, and should resist the weak idea that any form of religious thought has any special claim to be respected. Any set of ideas must be subject to critique and must stand or fall on its own merits or lack of merits. I don't think that we should give in to panic, fear, or repressive measures.Breadvan72 said:
I think that the generalised fear and suspicion of "Islam" and "Muslims" that we see in this thread and many similar threads are irrational. There is no one Islam and there is no monolithic group called Muslims. Most Muslims are not working for world domination.
I guess it could be argued, and with some truth, that in the 1930's, most Germans were not Nazi's, most Italians weren't fascist etc. Yet look what happened.To say fears are irrational, despite evidence to the contrary is plainly daft!
Breadvan72 said:
Any set of ideas must be subject to critique and must stand or fall on its own merits or lack of merits. I don't think that we should give in to panic, fear, or repressive measures.
Part of the problem, I think, is that many consider telling immigrants to accept our ideas (eg, not hating gay folk) is a "repressive measure"Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff