"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"
Discussion
Smiler. said:
longblackcoat said:
Breadvan72 said:
Those of you who are panicking about OMG Moooooosleeeeems are, I suggest, immune to reasoned argument on this topic because you have allowed yourselves to give in to fear (sometimes - not always but sometimes- underpinned by an edge of visceral distrust of the stranger), and have sometimes succumbed to manipulation by irresponsible media outlets. Just like the Germans did back in the day.
Yep. I'd add that there's a rather unpleasant whiff of justification; it's OK to dislike them muzzies - they're violent and they can't help it, 'cos that's what being a muzzy's all about. Unlike those lovely well-behaved Christian types.
I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
The one thing redeeming feature you can say about the Christian church (and there aren't many) is that at least you are allowed to leave it without fearing any sort of retribution (or social stigma) from either your family, the church, its followers or your local community.
Apostasy in the Christian church doesn't carry the same consequences as it does for Muslims.
But again, that's more down to Christianity's emasculation in the west over recent times.
Apostasy in the Christian church doesn't carry the same consequences as it does for Muslims.
But again, that's more down to Christianity's emasculation in the west over recent times.
longblackcoat said:
Smiler. said:
longblackcoat said:
Breadvan72 said:
Those of you who are panicking about OMG Moooooosleeeeems are, I suggest, immune to reasoned argument on this topic because you have allowed yourselves to give in to fear (sometimes - not always but sometimes- underpinned by an edge of visceral distrust of the stranger), and have sometimes succumbed to manipulation by irresponsible media outlets. Just like the Germans did back in the day.
Yep. I'd add that there's a rather unpleasant whiff of justification; it's OK to dislike them muzzies - they're violent and they can't help it, 'cos that's what being a muzzy's all about. Unlike those lovely well-behaved Christian types.
I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
By the same token, anyone who questions the rationale of allowing muslim clerics with such a poor grasp of humanity to educate children is, as displayed by the use of "whiff or justification, irrational" & the usual cries of racist & phobia is blasted with the "BNP" cannon.
Why is that?
Smiler. said:
Last time I looked, Christian clerics weren't calling for the death of those renouncing their their faith.
I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
mainstream christian clerics perhaps not , but certainly among the more culty end of the supposedly christian faith there is actively practiced shunning and 'dead to the church' type behaviours ...I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
longblackcoat said:
I apologise for no-one, and I vigorously dislike all religions. I think all the followers are suffering from degrees of delusion. But to tar all followers of a religion as being dangerous/violent/untrustworthy just because they're religious strikes me as being inherently stupid.
The question is even if they are all equally deluded are they all equally dangerous? I would argue not. Breadvan72 said:
As for saying that it is repressive to ask people to accept modern and tolerant values, that's obvious b
ks. The notion that is widely suggested here that we are not allowed to say that extreme Islam and many aspects of traditional Islamic beliefs and cultural practices (some of which are associated more with undeveloped societies than specifically with Islamic texts, FGM being one such practice) is, I suggest, a mistaken notion. We can and should speak out against crappy ideas and practices.
I didn't say it was repressive, nor was suggesting that you personally said it. Rather that there are some who have devoted many years to ensuring that it is considered as such, refusing to engage in the argument beyond shouting "racist" or being offended at the first sign of critiscism. Let alone suggesting that "our" values should be held to have precedence over certain foreign ones.ks. The notion that is widely suggested here that we are not allowed to say that extreme Islam and many aspects of traditional Islamic beliefs and cultural practices (some of which are associated more with undeveloped societies than specifically with Islamic texts, FGM being one such practice) is, I suggest, a mistaken notion. We can and should speak out against crappy ideas and practices. I do hope that it's starting to change, but I fear that they have managed to stall the argument for an entire generation.
mph1977 said:
Smiler. said:
Last time I looked, Christian clerics weren't calling for the death of those renouncing their their faith.
I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
mainstream christian clerics perhaps not , but certainly among the more culty end of the supposedly christian faith there is actively practiced shunning and 'dead to the church' type behaviours ...I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
Smiler. said:
Breadvan72 said:
Your figures about Sharia law look highly suspect, based perhaps on one of those Sun style surveys, using some modest population sample and weighted questions and/or questionable methodology or analysis. Contrast an actual election in Germany with an actual third of the voting population buying the Nazi nonsense, for many reasons to do with the historical conjuncture at that time.
Those of you who are panicking about OMG Moooooosleeeeems are, I suggest, immune to reasoned argument on this topic because you have allowed yourselves to give in to fear (sometimes - not always but sometimes- underpinned by an edge of visceral distrust of the stranger), and have sometimes succumbed to manipulation by irresponsible media outlets. Just like the Germans did back in the day.
On the other hand, your somewhat overblown reply to a simple question countering your seeming suggestion of xenophobia betrays a sense of intellectual superiority which equally pervades the subject whilst refusing to answer the question.Those of you who are panicking about OMG Moooooosleeeeems are, I suggest, immune to reasoned argument on this topic because you have allowed yourselves to give in to fear (sometimes - not always but sometimes- underpinned by an edge of visceral distrust of the stranger), and have sometimes succumbed to manipulation by irresponsible media outlets. Just like the Germans did back in the day.
Amongst the muslim demographic, there are increasing numbers of young people who are actively engaging with the more odious side of Islam. That's not just been "made up by the Sun of the Wail".
And yet you continue to tar any questions with "panicking about OMG Moooooosleeeeems" brush when questions about the education of children are posed.
I also think that your "all sky faeries are evil" stance is ducking the issue.
Secondly, you appear to be misreading (willfully or not) what I am writing, and some here seem to be finding apologism where there is none. I posted above in response to a point about objecting to Muslim clerics teaching children. No one, BTW, is ever obliged to answer any question on the net, but I answered that question, shortly. I oppose religious education of all types. I especially oppose extreme Islamic education. No one here doesn't oppose that, as far as I can see. It's a non argument - there are no apologists here for extreme Islam. I then engaged with another post, without quoting it - that being the post about how criticising extreme Islam is seen as repressive. To that I say that if anyone thinks that they are daft.
As for AJS, I think that he is persisting in asserting that Islam is a monolithic and undivided set of ideas, and asserting that ALL Islam is the IS type of Islam. I happen to think that ALL Islam, every variant thereof, is utter nonsense, but I think that only some of the variants are dangerous nonsense. Lumping in all Muslims with IS and similar crazies is like saying that all Jews are mean, or that all black people are lazy. It's daft, unhelpful and pointless to say such manifestly silly things.
I think that there are many reasons why IS and the other crazies have emerged, and, yes, the crappy texts of this super crappy religion give them ample encouragement and authority in their own deluded minds for what they do; but IS etc are historical phenomena, explained by multiple factors as well as the crappy texts, just as Christian militancy was explained by many factors when it used to rampage across the world with fire and sword. That was wrong then, and what IS etc do now is wrong now, but I question the idea that Islam as a (fractured) whole is inherently more poisonous than any of these poisonous creeds. They all suck. Bits of Islam happen to suck the most just now.
TL/DR: stop panicking! Keep calm and carry on. Students of the era when that slogan was coined will note that the keeping calm and carrying on did NOT mean ignoring real risks or doing nothing.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 27th November 13:18
Smiler. said:
mph1977 said:
Smiler. said:
Last time I looked, Christian clerics weren't calling for the death of those renouncing their their faith.
I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
mainstream christian clerics perhaps not , but certainly among the more culty end of the supposedly christian faith there is actively practiced shunning and 'dead to the church' type behaviours ...I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
don4l said:
I broadly agree with what you have written.
Although I am not religious, I have no problem respecting other people's religious beliefs - so long as they are within the law. I support both freedom of expression, and freedom of thought.
I support freedom of expression and freedom of thought. But I don't respect anyone's religious views. I tolerate them, because people should be free to believe in made up, superstitious, medieval drivel if they choose to. But I do not have to respect them or their views.Although I am not religious, I have no problem respecting other people's religious beliefs - so long as they are within the law. I support both freedom of expression, and freedom of thought.
If I went about saying I had fairies in my garden, I wouldn't expect respect. I'd expect to be thought of as a deluded fool. But I do expect to be left to get on with it in peace.
Smiler. said:
longblackcoat said:
Smiler. said:
longblackcoat said:
Breadvan72 said:
Those of you who are panicking about OMG Moooooosleeeeems are, I suggest, immune to reasoned argument on this topic because you have allowed yourselves to give in to fear (sometimes - not always but sometimes- underpinned by an edge of visceral distrust of the stranger), and have sometimes succumbed to manipulation by irresponsible media outlets. Just like the Germans did back in the day.
Yep. I'd add that there's a rather unpleasant whiff of justification; it's OK to dislike them muzzies - they're violent and they can't help it, 'cos that's what being a muzzy's all about. Unlike those lovely well-behaved Christian types.
I'd suggest that the stench of apologist eclipses this whiff you talk of.
By the same token, anyone who questions the rationale of allowing muslim clerics with such a poor grasp of humanity to educate children is, as displayed by the use of "whiff or justification, irrational" & the usual cries of racist & phobia is blasted with the "BNP" cannon.
Why is that?
BTW, what's all this "sense of intellectual superiority" BS? Are some of you so insecure about your own (media fed?) opinions that you have to resort to comments like that when you see something that upsets your fear filled and Mail-cossetted world view? Get a grip! It's Black Friday, allegedly*, so go shopping for some information and ideas. If the scary people on the internet who don't see the world in black and white terms upset you, step outside the comfort zone and see what you can find out.
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TwigtheWonderkid said:
don4l said:
I broadly agree with what you have written.
Although I am not religious, I have no problem respecting other people's religious beliefs - so long as they are within the law. I support both freedom of expression, and freedom of thought.
I support freedom of expression and freedom of thought. But I don't respect anyone's religious views. I tolerate them, because people should be free to believe in made up, superstitious, medieval drivel if they choose to. But I do not have to respect them or their views.Although I am not religious, I have no problem respecting other people's religious beliefs - so long as they are within the law. I support both freedom of expression, and freedom of thought.
If I went about saying I had fairies in my garden, I wouldn't expect respect. I'd expect to be thought of as a deluded fool. But I do expect to be left to get on with it in peace.
Breadvan72 said:
BTW, what's all this "sense of intellectual superiority" BS?
It was an attempt to address the rambling spiel that constituted a reply when a "yes" or "no" would suffice.Breadvan72 said:
Are some of you so insecure about your own (media fed?) opinions that you have to resort to comments like that when you see something that upsets your fear filled and Mail-cossetted world view?
No.Breadvan72 said:
Get a grip! It's Black Friday, allegedly*, so go shopping for some information and ideas. If the scary people on the internet who don't see the world in black and white terms upset you, step outside the comfort zone and see what you can find out.
Perfect example of the question at the top.Not really BV.
Any sects of Islam stand out as being particularly suited to peaceful coexistence in a secular democracy to you?
There definitely are reformists and there is an appetite for reform. My main gripe is that in failing to understand Islamism we are failing to spot them and weed out the fake moderates, so listening to the wrong people completely and hindering this reform, to the massive detriment of ourselves, the genuine reformers and the vast majority of ordinary Muslims.
Any sects of Islam stand out as being particularly suited to peaceful coexistence in a secular democracy to you?
There definitely are reformists and there is an appetite for reform. My main gripe is that in failing to understand Islamism we are failing to spot them and weed out the fake moderates, so listening to the wrong people completely and hindering this reform, to the massive detriment of ourselves, the genuine reformers and the vast majority of ordinary Muslims.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Muslim_movem...
Morocco recently introduced some reforms to Islamic law to increase the rights of women. It's all still rubbish, of course, and there should be no religious law anywhere, but there are some liberal movements in Islam. The reactionary movements happen to make more noise and have more guns at present.
I add that Turkey functioned as a sort of secular sort of democracy for a while until recently. There were periods of secular Muslim statehood in Somalia and Afghanistan before those states failed. Some of the far eastern states that have Muslim populations have managed various amounts of secular government and some democracy, although often the democracies have failed, but for reasons other than Islamism.
Morocco recently introduced some reforms to Islamic law to increase the rights of women. It's all still rubbish, of course, and there should be no religious law anywhere, but there are some liberal movements in Islam. The reactionary movements happen to make more noise and have more guns at present.
I add that Turkey functioned as a sort of secular sort of democracy for a while until recently. There were periods of secular Muslim statehood in Somalia and Afghanistan before those states failed. Some of the far eastern states that have Muslim populations have managed various amounts of secular government and some democracy, although often the democracies have failed, but for reasons other than Islamism.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 27th November 13:52
longblackcoat said:
No idea, you'd need to ask someone who justifies it. In my view, ALL faith schools - and yes, I include Catholic schools and the like in this - are antithetical to good and unbiased education. I'd ban all of them.
Ditto. The French have got that one right. They have got other things wrong, including allowing ghettos to grow in the banlieus. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff