"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I support freedom of expression and freedom of thought. But I don't respect anyone's religious views. I tolerate them, because people should be free to believe in made up, superstitious, medieval drivel if they choose to. But I do not have to respect them or their views.
If I went about saying I had fairies in my garden, I wouldn't expect respect. I'd expect to be thought of as a deluded fool. But I do expect to be left to get on with it in peace.
"made up, superstitious, medieval drivel"If I went about saying I had fairies in my garden, I wouldn't expect respect. I'd expect to be thought of as a deluded fool. But I do expect to be left to get on with it in peace.
These cults/religions have been around a little longer than the middle ages.
Anyway, I know plenty of people who draw strength from their religious beliefs during very hard personal times - if this gives them strength and comfort and prevents them from doing something daft then I really do respect their views.
We all seem to be getting sidetracked by the noisy, nutty rapey types who love to shout in your face about how their way of life is the best. Much like the cult of Pistonheads sometimes. Those are the people whose views I don't tolerate or respect.
Its a shame at the moment the murdering, paedo, rapist type of religious zealots seem to be getting all the airtime. The failing of moderate followers is their stubborn reluctance to distance themselves from these types and even in many cases make excuses for them.
Not a good situation.
Breadvan72 said:
Yes some good names on there. Now click through them and look at how they have been received. Including the banned books and a couple of assassinations.Again it's not a problem with Muslims as people. It's a culture across the Muslim world, and a very well funded and well organised campaign to bring it to the west.
AJS- said:
Breadvan
The trouble with that orthodox liberal view is that it basically assumes all rational ideas are equal and only the degree of implementation determines how dangerous they are. This leads naturally to the assumption that the degree of implementation of the irrational ideas is determined by poverty and education.
This is just not so. Islam is demonstrably violent and intolerant, and it is inherently political. This isn't some superficial cherry picking tgat has flared up in response to current events or policies. It is woven through it's core texts, backed up by history and visible today.
I agree completely about the need to vigorously defend our own culture and values, but that is far easier if you know what you're defending it from. Our current insistence on not understanding Islamism at all and taking an entirely uncritical view of it is far less rational than the well supported view that with mass Muslim immigration will come an increase in intolerance and violence. For gays, and also Jews, women and ultimately pretty much everyone.
This. The trouble with that orthodox liberal view is that it basically assumes all rational ideas are equal and only the degree of implementation determines how dangerous they are. This leads naturally to the assumption that the degree of implementation of the irrational ideas is determined by poverty and education.
This is just not so. Islam is demonstrably violent and intolerant, and it is inherently political. This isn't some superficial cherry picking tgat has flared up in response to current events or policies. It is woven through it's core texts, backed up by history and visible today.
I agree completely about the need to vigorously defend our own culture and values, but that is far easier if you know what you're defending it from. Our current insistence on not understanding Islamism at all and taking an entirely uncritical view of it is far less rational than the well supported view that with mass Muslim immigration will come an increase in intolerance and violence. For gays, and also Jews, women and ultimately pretty much everyone.
http://ex-muslim.org.uk/manifesto/
Breadvan72 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Muslim_movem...
Morocco recently introduced some reforms to Islamic law to increase the rights of women. It's all still rubbish, of course, and there should be no religious law anywhere, but there are some liberal movements in Islam. The reactionary movements happen to make more noise and have more guns at present.
I add that Turkey functioned as a sort of secular sort of democracy for a while until recently. There were periods of secular Muslim statehood in Somalia and Afghanistan before those states failed. Some of the far eastern states that have Muslim populations have managed various amounts of secular government and some democracy, although often the democracies have failed, but for reasons other than Islamism.
When one considers what might have been in Afghanistan and what has been the unfolding over time is very sobering.Morocco recently introduced some reforms to Islamic law to increase the rights of women. It's all still rubbish, of course, and there should be no religious law anywhere, but there are some liberal movements in Islam. The reactionary movements happen to make more noise and have more guns at present.
I add that Turkey functioned as a sort of secular sort of democracy for a while until recently. There were periods of secular Muslim statehood in Somalia and Afghanistan before those states failed. Some of the far eastern states that have Muslim populations have managed various amounts of secular government and some democracy, although often the democracies have failed, but for reasons other than Islamism.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Friday 27th November 13:52
I read A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hossieni on holiday this year; this was once a culture that came close to alignment with "the West" but diverged beyond measure.
Essential reading imo on this topic,
ks, great idea. Wish I'd thought of it earlier.It is just not compatible with our Western lifestyle.
In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
It is just not compatible with our Western lifestyle.
In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
del mar said:
It is just not compatible with our Western lifestyle.
In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
Sweeping generalisations again. Some Muslim countries don't allow other religions, but many other Muslim countries do. 600 Christian churches in a country which is 99% Muslim (Iran!) In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
I find it frustrating that many posters appear to consider all Muslims (and hence all Muslim countries) as the same. There are major variations in attitudes, tolerance and acceptance of other faiths and beliefs across the Muslim world, just as there are amongst Christians, Jews, Sikhs, atheists, etc.
rscott said:
del mar said:
It is just not compatible with our Western lifestyle.
In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
Sweeping generalisations again. Some Muslim countries don't allow other religions, but many other Muslim countries do. 600 Christian churches in a country which is 99% Muslim (Iran!) In Muslim countries they don't tolerate other religions as Islam is the only one true religion - it is the word of God. Why would anybody tolerate an inferior religion ? This is then applied to our western lifestyle.
Groups like quillam (spelling?) look to address extremism, but they don't address the underlying issue.
I am not clever enough to give you an answer, but the more we bend and give to Islam the worse the issue will become.
They had an easy opportunity to show they can be compatible, when new guidelines were issued with regard to stunning of animals before slaughter, but they chose not to. So we amended legislation for them, the pork in supermarkets and prisons is another. The law society have guidance / advice on sharia compliant wills - why ?
You can't ban a religion, I can rant and rave all I like but it won't change anything. Is it too late ?
I am 41 so not the future of the country, the young have been brought up in a more Muslim culture than I, perhaps it doesn't bother them ?
I find it frustrating that many posters appear to consider all Muslims (and hence all Muslim countries) as the same. There are major variations in attitudes, tolerance and acceptance of other faiths and beliefs across the Muslim world, just as there are amongst Christians, Jews, Sikhs, atheists, etc.
Only one faith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Quilliam (or at least Maajid Nawaz) seem like one of the more hopeful organisations. Though I find it curious that they were named after William Quilliam, a convert who sought an Islamic Britain and swore allegiance to the Ottoman Empire.
No matter. Nawaz speaks strongly in favour of a secular society and has said that the huddud punishments of stoning, beheading etc are always and everywhere wrong. Incredibly such modest things mark him out as one of the genuine reformers.
You're 41, I'm 4 years behind you and would like to think I have a few years future left yet. I don't much relish that future as an Islamic one. This is looking like being the defining struggle of our age and I am not happy with any level of Islamisation of the kind we all too often see sold as diversity or tolerance.
No matter. Nawaz speaks strongly in favour of a secular society and has said that the huddud punishments of stoning, beheading etc are always and everywhere wrong. Incredibly such modest things mark him out as one of the genuine reformers.
You're 41, I'm 4 years behind you and would like to think I have a few years future left yet. I don't much relish that future as an Islamic one. This is looking like being the defining struggle of our age and I am not happy with any level of Islamisation of the kind we all too often see sold as diversity or tolerance.
rscott
It's not really a sweeping generalisation. There is a long history of Islamic jurisprudence with quite detailed provisions for how they tolerate other faiths. Allowing some churches and synagogues is part of that, building new ones is generally forbidden. Proselytising to Muslims is always forbidden. The second class status of non Muslims is a constant.
It's not really a sweeping generalisation. There is a long history of Islamic jurisprudence with quite detailed provisions for how they tolerate other faiths. Allowing some churches and synagogues is part of that, building new ones is generally forbidden. Proselytising to Muslims is always forbidden. The second class status of non Muslims is a constant.
AJS- said:
rscott
It's not really a sweeping generalisation. There is a long history of Islamic jurisprudence with quite detailed provisions for how they tolerate other faiths. Allowing some churches and synagogues is part of that, building new ones is generally forbidden. Proselytising to Muslims is always forbidden. The second class status of non Muslims is a constant.
Apart from new builds like this then -http://www.christiantoday.com/article/new.church.in.muslim.ruled.uae.overflows.with.christian.believers/56767.htm It's not really a sweeping generalisation. There is a long history of Islamic jurisprudence with quite detailed provisions for how they tolerate other faiths. Allowing some churches and synagogues is part of that, building new ones is generally forbidden. Proselytising to Muslims is always forbidden. The second class status of non Muslims is a constant.
Smiler. said:
I suppose this ( 18 Sent to Prison by Revolutionary Court for Practicing Faith) is just a part of the sweeping generalisation too?
Only one faith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Is there a news report on this which doesn't rely on Fox News as the source?Only one faith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Rscot
You're right, and I have muslm friends that don't want to kill me, but we can't deny that Muslim countries are less tolerant of other religions. There are Christians in say Pakistan, but you get the impression they have a difficult time.
It just needs a difficult debate, people are annoyed at the "religion of peace" repsonse to every atrocity. There are attacks on mosques, which isint right, but people have no way to vent their frustration. The governments response is always to condemn them, and whilst not siding with them fall in line to say this is not Islam and islam is an important part of society.
In my limited opinion I think the book is a violent book, but written in a violent time. To follow the exact letter of the book is probably what Isis are doing. However there are lots of Muslims who have the knowledge / understanding to ignore / take with a pinch of salt some verses. We don't need to kill each other to be good Muslims.
I would welcome any suggestions by anybody as to how we can deal with them, but nobody has one, or if they do they are deemed a right wing extremist.
You're right, and I have muslm friends that don't want to kill me, but we can't deny that Muslim countries are less tolerant of other religions. There are Christians in say Pakistan, but you get the impression they have a difficult time.
It just needs a difficult debate, people are annoyed at the "religion of peace" repsonse to every atrocity. There are attacks on mosques, which isint right, but people have no way to vent their frustration. The governments response is always to condemn them, and whilst not siding with them fall in line to say this is not Islam and islam is an important part of society.
In my limited opinion I think the book is a violent book, but written in a violent time. To follow the exact letter of the book is probably what Isis are doing. However there are lots of Muslims who have the knowledge / understanding to ignore / take with a pinch of salt some verses. We don't need to kill each other to be good Muslims.
I would welcome any suggestions by anybody as to how we can deal with them, but nobody has one, or if they do they are deemed a right wing extremist.
rscott said:
Smiler. said:
I suppose this ( 18 Sent to Prison by Revolutionary Court for Practicing Faith) is just a part of the sweeping generalisation too?
Only one faith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Is there a news report on this which doesn't rely on Fox News as the source?Only one faith prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.
Bravo.
Try this for size.
Or this
Or this
Of course, I expect you'll dismiss these reports with similar ease. The fact that you appear happy for persecution to go on in other countries speaks volumes.
Apostasy, yeah!
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff