"I'm a gay man and mass Muslim immigration terrifies me"
Discussion
tangerine_sedge said:
This. NP&E has become a place for a minority to circle-jerk their nasty opinions, safe in the knowledge that (a) the moderators won't control them and (b) they can easily shout down any opposition.
It's an odd place where the last few 'leftie' posters remaining here are acknowledged centrist Tories.
Actually anywhere but PH I'd be considered quite right wing It's an odd place where the last few 'leftie' posters remaining here are acknowledged centrist Tories.
e21Mark said:
andymc said:
e21Mark said:
Foppo said:
People walking about covering their faces or preaching hate in certain mosque's that has to be stopped.Tolerance can only go so far.
Absolutely.
s though.#Gecko1978 said:
e21Mark said:
andymc said:
e21Mark said:
Foppo said:
People walking about covering their faces or preaching hate in certain mosque's that has to be stopped.Tolerance can only go so far.
Absolutely.s though.#
) they appear to be trying to convert voters. They do their fare share preaching too! (Also full of lies and deception) Their new leader even stated on camera, that their cause was one worth dying for. I assume the irony was lost on her though. e21Mark said:
Listening to their efforts to be seen as a serious political party (good luck with that one! ) they appear to be trying to convert voters. They do their fare share preaching too! (Also full of lies and deception) Their new leader even stated on camera, that their cause was one worth dying for. I assume the irony was lost on her though.
Aren't the EDL (or at least their big wigs) quite fundamentally Christian too? I believe they don't make a big play of it in case it confuses the troops, but I'm sure it's sort of tied up in their aims/doctrine. ) they appear to be trying to convert voters. They do their fare share preaching too! (Also full of lies and deception) Their new leader even stated on camera, that their cause was one worth dying for. I assume the irony was lost on her though. AJS- said:
This is what's particularly odd and contemptible about the pro-Islamist left. All the decent things 'the left' have stood for over the last century from female suffrage and women's rights to gay rights, racial equality, the fight against anti-semitism, racial and religious equality, self governance and the end of imperialism have all been thrown out. Radical Islam stands directly against every single one of them.
"the left" isn't pro-Islamist or pro Radical islam.But you've highlighted the very big issue of tarring all people with the same brush which ISIS is relying on to fuel the "war".
I'm don't believe in any God and I think people who are religious are essentially easily-lead, but if someone wants to be a Muslim, that's their business.
That, however, is not pro-Islamist or Radical or any other term you want to use.
TTwiggy said:
e21Mark said:
Listening to their efforts to be seen as a serious political party (good luck with that one! ) they appear to be trying to convert voters. They do their fare share preaching too! (Also full of lies and deception) Their new leader even stated on camera, that their cause was one worth dying for. I assume the irony was lost on her though.
Aren't the EDL (or at least their big wigs) quite fundamentally Christian too? I believe they don't make a big play of it in case it confuses the troops, but I'm sure it's sort of tied up in their aims/doctrine. ) they appear to be trying to convert voters. They do their fare share preaching too! (Also full of lies and deception) Their new leader even stated on camera, that their cause was one worth dying for. I assume the irony was lost on her though. AJS- said:
That's why I said the 'pro-Islamist' left, rather than just 'the left' Hackney.
Fair enough, not sure how you'd emphasise / quote to differentiate:- those parts of the left who are pro-Islamist
- the left, who are pro-Islamist
Adding a couple of apostophes as you've done above (but not in your original post) doesn't really do it.
Hackney said:
AJS- said:
That's why I said the 'pro-Islamist' left, rather than just 'the left' Hackney.
Fair enough, not sure how you'd emphasise / quote to differentiate:- those parts of the left who are pro-Islamist
- the left, who are pro-Islamist
Adding a couple of apostophes as you've done above (but not in your original post) doesn't really do it.
Why not the pro-islamist everyone.
Or why even 'pro-islamist' at all. Its an odd label as it implies a particular favouritism towards the religion when it is nothing to do with that at all. I would accept pro-humanitarian, perhaps, but por-islamist is irrelevant.
blindswelledrat said:
And if the emphasis was pro-islamist- why is the left relevant at all?
Why not the pro-islamist everyone.
Or why even 'pro-islamist' at all. Its an odd label as it implies a particular favouritism towards the religion when it is nothing to do with that at all. I would accept pro-humanitarian, perhaps, but por-islamist is irrelevant.
Quite. One is either Islamist or not.Why not the pro-islamist everyone.
Or why even 'pro-islamist' at all. Its an odd label as it implies a particular favouritism towards the religion when it is nothing to do with that at all. I would accept pro-humanitarian, perhaps, but por-islamist is irrelevant.
I can't think of anyone on the left who is "pro-Islamist". I can think of plenty who think that ISIL are the product of misguided western military interventions but, regardless of what you think of that opinion, that is not "pro-Islamist".
Then that would imply that everyone was pro-Islamist.
Fair points though. Why 'the left'?
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
Fair points though. Why 'the left'?
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
AJS- said:
Then that would imply that everyone was pro-Islamist.
Fair points though. Why 'the left'?
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
Where do you hear them from?Fair points though. Why 'the left'?
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
THe people you have spent months debating with on PH are all, to my knowledge, slightly right of centre. (that's not a fact it just applies to all of the ones who's views I know). It's just not correct to assume that someone who is pro human rights has any left wing tendencies and yet it is used as some kind of odd insult to anyone who disagrees.
I would strongly suspect that levels of education would be a far better indicator of opinion on here than political preference, although again, not a wholly accurate one.
AJS- said:
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
I have to say my recent experience tends to tally with this. Most of my communication with other people comes via the dreaded Facebook, since I see few people on a day to day basis.The left leaning atheist types are also the ones who're leaning towards supporting Islam, which I find utterly bizarre. They're vociferous in their criticism of Christianity, but ambivalent or apologetic regarding Islam.
It's a bit of a generalisation, of course, and there are plenty of 'Lefties' who aren't like this.
There is, of course, more than enough nonsense spouted by the Britain First sympathisers too, so I guess there's some balance, at least on my FB feed.
Super Slo Mo said:
I
The left leaning atheist types are also the ones who're leaning towards supporting Islam, which I find utterly bizarre. They're vociferous in their criticism of Christianity, but ambivalent or apologetic regarding Islam.
.
Is this actually true?The left leaning atheist types are also the ones who're leaning towards supporting Islam, which I find utterly bizarre. They're vociferous in their criticism of Christianity, but ambivalent or apologetic regarding Islam.
.
I have never heard anyone non-religious 'supporting Islam'. It doesn't even make sense.
If you are an atheist then you don't support any religious because you believe they are all nonsense.
Why would you arbitrarily choose a religion to support
My gut feeling as that along with AJS you are mistaking being in favour of helping refugees as being 'pro islamist'.
Or perhaps being anti-racist as being 'pro islamist'.
AJS- said:
Then that would imply that everyone was pro-Islamist.
No. The implication is that you cannot be "pro-Islamist" without being an Islamist and that therefore anyone who does not share the Islamist agenda is not "pro-Islamist".Like I said, I can think of no-one who shares the Islamist agenda, or thinks it acceptable, other than people who actively wish for the "Caliphate", and that's certainly not the left, nor the right, nor the middle of UK politics.
Pointing the finger at Western policies as being somehow responsible for the rise of Islamism, or believing that a purely military solution will not work is not "pro-Islamist" and nor is it a right/left divide. Whether it is correct is another matter.
George Galloway is the most obvious example of the pro-Islamist left. Though I suspect he is actually a convert himself.
Cherie Blair is worth a mention too, for her bizarre defence of the 'right' of Shabina Begum to wear her jilbab to school.
Begum was born in the UK to Bangladeshi parents.
The jilbab was invented in Saudi Arabia in the 1970s. It forms no part of her or anyone else's 'tradition' any more than flares do.
The school governors who opposed this were mostly Muslim.
The only reason to wear this is to openly identify with radical Wahabi Islam.
Whether she just didn't bother to do any research on this before taking it to the House of Lords (who to their credit ruled against her) or she thought that such an expression of identity was a genuine human right is not clear. Neither is very plausible or encouraging.
I know she is a professional human rights lawyer and fights cases on law, not necessarily justones she agrees with, but she does choose them to some degree. If that's not pro Islamist then what is it? A cynical PR move to counteract her husband's 'war on terror' then in full swing? Some sort of cultural masochism where she will promote just about anything that is visibly foreign and apparently a victim?
For an example of the left who are not very anti Islam look at vegetarian tree hugger Pat Condell's collection of YouTube videos, or Christopher Hitchen's excellent talks on it.
Cherie Blair is worth a mention too, for her bizarre defence of the 'right' of Shabina Begum to wear her jilbab to school.
Begum was born in the UK to Bangladeshi parents.
The jilbab was invented in Saudi Arabia in the 1970s. It forms no part of her or anyone else's 'tradition' any more than flares do.
The school governors who opposed this were mostly Muslim.
The only reason to wear this is to openly identify with radical Wahabi Islam.
Whether she just didn't bother to do any research on this before taking it to the House of Lords (who to their credit ruled against her) or she thought that such an expression of identity was a genuine human right is not clear. Neither is very plausible or encouraging.
I know she is a professional human rights lawyer and fights cases on law, not necessarily justones she agrees with, but she does choose them to some degree. If that's not pro Islamist then what is it? A cynical PR move to counteract her husband's 'war on terror' then in full swing? Some sort of cultural masochism where she will promote just about anything that is visibly foreign and apparently a victim?
For an example of the left who are not very anti Islam look at vegetarian tree hugger Pat Condell's collection of YouTube videos, or Christopher Hitchen's excellent talks on it.
What about Gay Muslims, that must be a confusing and difficult combination, do Gay Muslims just keep quiet, somehow leave the faith or is there any acceptance for Gay Muslims in the UK from their own communities ?
Religion appears to have been generally written by straight men, a few thousand years back whilst making a really strong point that they weren't gay by rattling on about killing gays.
Its a long, long time later, the policy of killing gays hasnt worked really has it, Hitler had a go as well, perhaps just time to stop worrying about what other people do in the bedroom ?
But oh no, its religion, it cannot change, because it is old, because it is "Holy", what does "Holy" even mean, it means someone deemed it important a long time ago, I am declaring this post Holy, it is scared and you must bow in reverence and awe.
Religion appears to have been generally written by straight men, a few thousand years back whilst making a really strong point that they weren't gay by rattling on about killing gays.
Its a long, long time later, the policy of killing gays hasnt worked really has it, Hitler had a go as well, perhaps just time to stop worrying about what other people do in the bedroom ?
But oh no, its religion, it cannot change, because it is old, because it is "Holy", what does "Holy" even mean, it means someone deemed it important a long time ago, I am declaring this post Holy, it is scared and you must bow in reverence and awe.
AJS- said:
Then that would imply that everyone was pro-Islamist.
Fair points though. Why 'the left'?
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
I think we actually have another divide which I have observed over the last few years on PHs. Fair points though. Why 'the left'?
Left and right are very broad terms for a huge range of opinions, but most of the defence and apologies I hear for radical Islam come from an identifiably left wing, cultural marxist perspective of everyone and everything being equal, and the real root of the problem lying with European imperialism and wealth disparities.
A number of people have built their entire belief system on the policy that mass immigration shouldn't be constrained both on economic grounds, but also due to their belief in some sort of "world" citizenship.
Hence why you get a number of posters who are centre-right Tories telling us why we shouldn't stop the current migration from the Middle East. In their view why would you stop a migration of people who have as much right to be here as you and I and will bring us more prosperity besides?.
They become even more passionate about defending the principle of mass Muslim immigration because this is where their philosophy most clearly breaks down. Not only on economic grounds, as Muslim communities are usually at the bottom in terms of economic performance throughout Europe, but also in that it exposes our society to danger to boot.
AJS- said:
...
Cherie Blair is worth a mention too, for her bizarre defence of the 'right' of Shabina Begum to wear her jilbab to school.
...
Er, you do know that barristers are taxis on a rank, and that they don't have to agree with their client's positions, er, don't you? Cherie Booth, in real life, deplores Islamic dress for women (I know this because she told me so, while we were in a cab on the way to a meeting with some mega capitalists that we were acting for at the time). But, at the time of the Begum case, she was a practising barrister, and she had a case to put forward on behalf of a client. I am glad that her client lost, by the way. Cherie Blair is worth a mention too, for her bizarre defence of the 'right' of Shabina Begum to wear her jilbab to school.
...
Hey, I go to Court and represent all sorts of scumbags, even David Cameron. It's my job.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff