Turkey Shoots Down Jet Near Syria Border
Discussion
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Barrel bombs ? Do you actually know what a barrel bomb is ? Using the term without realising it is a metal container filled with explosives, you know just like any other unguided aerial dropped explosive munition. Oh nooooooo barrel bombs, sounds so much worse. Do you not wonder, if Assad was so evil and bad, how he has managed to survive, fighting a war on multiple fronts for so long? someone think he is not too bad, willing to die for the actual internationally recognised Syrian government.
Asaad did not cause the refugee problem, the huge support for terrorists and Islamist by Turkey / USA/ Saudi and Quatar created a quagmire of death for the civilians. Do you think we would be here, if outside nations had not poured HUGE amounts of cash for mercenaries, buying the cut price oil, and pumping weapons and training into Syria? The CIA / Saudi / Turkey have been training "moderate" (moderate Islamist is like being moderately pregnant) Islamist fighters, supplying them with weapons (MANPADS, TOW missiles) and money. Al Qaeda now have US made TOW missiles for goodness sake.
Let's have a look at the recent dictator removals and how successful they have been.
Libya - Stable, quite prosperous country turned into a failed state with a bloody civil war, destabilising the entire region. Perhaps Gaddafi knew what was brewing in Benghazi, understood the danger it posed. Cameron and Sarkozy clearly did not. Remember the terrorist who shot the British tourists in Tunisia was trained in..... The terrorists who killed the oil plant workers in Mali were trained in...... Yes, Libya.
Iraq - Taken from a moderately stable but damaged state (Due to UN sanctions, you know cash for oil, but lets children die sanctions) into a hugely failed state, providing a breeding ground for psychotic terrorists which have destabilised the entire region, including Syria!
Assad presided over a stable secular country, it is now a religiously divided, wreck. Want to really sort out Syria? let Assad and Russia clean out the hornets nest that has been created, then consider the luxury of democracy.
Do you notice a trend at all ?
spot on imoAsaad did not cause the refugee problem, the huge support for terrorists and Islamist by Turkey / USA/ Saudi and Quatar created a quagmire of death for the civilians. Do you think we would be here, if outside nations had not poured HUGE amounts of cash for mercenaries, buying the cut price oil, and pumping weapons and training into Syria? The CIA / Saudi / Turkey have been training "moderate" (moderate Islamist is like being moderately pregnant) Islamist fighters, supplying them with weapons (MANPADS, TOW missiles) and money. Al Qaeda now have US made TOW missiles for goodness sake.
Let's have a look at the recent dictator removals and how successful they have been.
Libya - Stable, quite prosperous country turned into a failed state with a bloody civil war, destabilising the entire region. Perhaps Gaddafi knew what was brewing in Benghazi, understood the danger it posed. Cameron and Sarkozy clearly did not. Remember the terrorist who shot the British tourists in Tunisia was trained in..... The terrorists who killed the oil plant workers in Mali were trained in...... Yes, Libya.
Iraq - Taken from a moderately stable but damaged state (Due to UN sanctions, you know cash for oil, but lets children die sanctions) into a hugely failed state, providing a breeding ground for psychotic terrorists which have destabilised the entire region, including Syria!
Assad presided over a stable secular country, it is now a religiously divided, wreck. Want to really sort out Syria? let Assad and Russia clean out the hornets nest that has been created, then consider the luxury of democracy.
Do you notice a trend at all ?
ATG said:
Richie200 said:
...
Putin is the only straight talker in this whole mess. ...
That is rather naive. Ditto saying "he's the only one doing anything about ISIS".Putin is the only straight talker in this whole mess. ...
The quote in your second point was not mine!
Hosenbugler said:
So the west stands by while ISIS perpetrate war crimes, mass murder , and genocide do they? The mass murder of "unbelievers" has been one of their stated aims since day one.
Like said, you are delusional.
There are other nations, regimes and dictatorships that are / have committed those crimes, and we've stood by and ignored it.Like said, you are delusional.
It's delusional to think that the West would intervene in such situations without their own interests in the region (oil, gas..).
And as it's been stated, some of our 'allies' commit acts just as abhorrent as those committed by IS. Saudi's bombing of Yemen civilians is no more acceptable than Assad's treatment of his people, nor Russias bombing of 'moderates', or Israel's bombing of mosques and civilians in Palestine.
I agree. Yes the whole region is a f*cked up quagmire but why was that ever our concern? I'm not sure who declared the West the guardian of world order or that the Western lifestyle should be the template for EVERYONE. Personally I think we've made the position worse not better by meddling with people we don't understand and our meddling has been a direct contributor in bringing the fight to our very doorstep. If we fly thousands of miles to bomb a group of people that we have arbitrarily decided are the "bad guys", why are we then surprised that those people choose to retaliate?
I'll say it again, people are literally hacking each others limbs off in Africa, genocide is being committed in other parts of the world and yet we don't see cues forming for countries to go piling in to those areas heavy handed. I wish we'd stop pretending that we are in the Middle East for humanitarian reasons and to bring stability. The only stability our politicians are interested in is the stable supply of cheap oil. It seems this is the only thing worth us sticking our head in the hornets nest for, the politicians think this is a price worth paying as it doesn't effect them, it's just the proles getting blown up, over here and over there so what does it cost them besides a few crocodile tears.
I'll say it again, people are literally hacking each others limbs off in Africa, genocide is being committed in other parts of the world and yet we don't see cues forming for countries to go piling in to those areas heavy handed. I wish we'd stop pretending that we are in the Middle East for humanitarian reasons and to bring stability. The only stability our politicians are interested in is the stable supply of cheap oil. It seems this is the only thing worth us sticking our head in the hornets nest for, the politicians think this is a price worth paying as it doesn't effect them, it's just the proles getting blown up, over here and over there so what does it cost them besides a few crocodile tears.
barryrs said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Barrel bombs ? Do you actually know what a barrel bomb is ? Using the term without realising it is a metal container filled with explosives, you know just like any other unguided aerial dropped explosive munition. Oh nooooooo barrel bombs, sounds so much worse. Do you not wonder, if Assad was so evil and bad, how he has managed to survive, fighting a war on multiple fronts for so long? someone think he is not too bad, willing to die for the actual internationally recognised Syrian government.
A barrel bomb generally contains HE along with shrapnel and oil; its an indiscriminate weapon designed to induce terror in the local population and is tactically useless unless your really targeting civilians.Comparing Assad to Saddam Hussein and Ghaddafi is incredibly misleading and disingenuous.
Firstly Assad is a relatively small minority Alawite (part of Shia) in a largely Sunni country. So he and his family have always ruled by oppression and the occasional bit of mass murder.
Secondly Assad has killed more people in this revolution than all the other recent Middle East revolutions put together. As many as 300,000, mostly civilians. He uses chemical weapons, white phosphorous and barrel bombs in attacks which have no military value. He just wants to punish disloyal Syrian citizens.
Thirdly all the other Middle East civil wars happened AFTER the dictator was deposed. In Syria the civil war has happened BEFORE the dictator was deposed. This is utterly different. Removing Assad cannot make things worse, it can only make them better.
Fourthly Assad has created millions of refugees, who are headed here. This makes his actions our business. If we are to bomb Syria the target should be Assad, not ISIS.
Anyone who thinks that the migrants are not caused by Assad is deluded, as the facts prove: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/ar...
The only solution for Syria is partition. But politicians outside Syria will not allow that.
Firstly Assad is a relatively small minority Alawite (part of Shia) in a largely Sunni country. So he and his family have always ruled by oppression and the occasional bit of mass murder.
Secondly Assad has killed more people in this revolution than all the other recent Middle East revolutions put together. As many as 300,000, mostly civilians. He uses chemical weapons, white phosphorous and barrel bombs in attacks which have no military value. He just wants to punish disloyal Syrian citizens.
Thirdly all the other Middle East civil wars happened AFTER the dictator was deposed. In Syria the civil war has happened BEFORE the dictator was deposed. This is utterly different. Removing Assad cannot make things worse, it can only make them better.
Fourthly Assad has created millions of refugees, who are headed here. This makes his actions our business. If we are to bomb Syria the target should be Assad, not ISIS.
Anyone who thinks that the migrants are not caused by Assad is deluded, as the facts prove: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/ar...
The only solution for Syria is partition. But politicians outside Syria will not allow that.
Edited by Adam Ansel on Wednesday 25th November 10:36
Edited by Adam Ansel on Wednesday 25th November 10:38
Guvernator said:
I agree. Yes the whole region is a f*cked up quagmire but why was that ever our concern? I'm not sure who declared the West the guardian of world order or that the Western lifestyle should be the template for EVERYONE. Personally I think we've made the position worse not better by meddling with people we don't understand and our meddling has been a direct contributor in bringing the fight to our very doorstep. If we fly thousands of miles to bomb a group of people that we have arbitrarily decided are the "bad guys", why are we then surprised that those people choose to retaliate?
I'll say it again, people are literally hacking each others limbs off in Africa, genocide is being committed in other parts of the world and yet we don't see cues forming for countries to go piling in to those areas heavy handed. I wish we'd stop pretending that we are in the Middle East for humanitarian reasons and to bring stability. The only stability our politicians are interested in is the stable supply of cheap oil. It seems this is the only thing worth us sticking our head in the hornets nest for, the politicians think this is a price worth paying as it doesn't effect them, it's just the proles getting blown up, over here and over there so what does it cost them besides a few crocodile tears.
This is exactly why. 'Humanitarian reasons' have always been a cheap cover. We want oil, we want gas, we want tor remain world superpowers. All this fighting terrorists, allying with Arab nations, it's all irrelevant in the long term.I'll say it again, people are literally hacking each others limbs off in Africa, genocide is being committed in other parts of the world and yet we don't see cues forming for countries to go piling in to those areas heavy handed. I wish we'd stop pretending that we are in the Middle East for humanitarian reasons and to bring stability. The only stability our politicians are interested in is the stable supply of cheap oil. It seems this is the only thing worth us sticking our head in the hornets nest for, the politicians think this is a price worth paying as it doesn't effect them, it's just the proles getting blown up, over here and over there so what does it cost them besides a few crocodile tears.
And not enough people will ever care to do anything about it. Western Europe and the US are some of the safest, wealthiest and comfiest places one could hope to live, relatively speaking. And that global position doesn't come for nothing.
It's s
t, but it's life. Would I rather live in a war-troubled, geonocidal, famine-ravished third world country where the risk of dying any day is an actual reality, or in my cosy first world country that stays safe and wealthy by exploiting the former. Shameful to say but I think we'd all answer the same way.otolith said:
They're cheap and primitive, but I can't see that they are inherently more evil than a fuel-air bomb or cluster bomb.
I remember those fuel air bombs being decried as 'Weapons of Mass Destruction" prior to the second Gulf War (on the grounds that it was feared Saddam might use them as it was thought the Iraqis had the capability) ... until the Yanks started dropping them when they invaded Iraq. Then the media shut up about them.Richie200 said:
ATG said:
Richie200 said:
...
Putin is the only straight talker in this whole mess. ...
That is rather naive. Ditto saying "he's the only one doing anything about ISIS".Putin is the only straight talker in this whole mess. ...
The quote in your second point was not mine!
Look, frankly when someone starts saying "the BBC and their ilk", you get the feeling you're talking to someone who is actively looking for an unusual position, i.e. it's actually more about sounding a little controversial, standing out from the crowd, rather than being genuinely interested in finding out what is going on.
There is tons of commentary and analysis available. If, having actually fine done reading, you think Putin is really the only straight talker in this mess, "naivety" would no longer cover it.
Adam Ansel said:
I am sorry that some here are ignorant of the FACTS.
We started killing Islamic State people in air strikes on 8 August 2014.
ISIS killed James Wright Foley, the first Westerner harmed, on 19 August 2014.
ISIS have been demonised by our politicians and media.
They are no worse than Saudi Arabia, who gouge out eyes and are currently mass murdering civilians in Yemen, but who are our allies.
ISIS are building a country, Islamic State, by a process of stealing land and of genocide. This is exactly how the USA and the state of Israel were created.
Oh, well that's OK then. Let's just leave them to it and let them come and kill people in Europe whenever they feel like it.We started killing Islamic State people in air strikes on 8 August 2014.
ISIS killed James Wright Foley, the first Westerner harmed, on 19 August 2014.
ISIS have been demonised by our politicians and media.
They are no worse than Saudi Arabia, who gouge out eyes and are currently mass murdering civilians in Yemen, but who are our allies.
ISIS are building a country, Islamic State, by a process of stealing land and of genocide. This is exactly how the USA and the state of Israel were created.
Blimey! Russian Pilot rescued alive by special forces:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...
Hopefully they didn't injure any of the 'good' insurgents rescuing him .....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...
Hopefully they didn't injure any of the 'good' insurgents rescuing him .....
otolith said:
barryrs said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Barrel bombs ? Do you actually know what a barrel bomb is ? Using the term without realising it is a metal container filled with explosives, you know just like any other unguided aerial dropped explosive munition. Oh nooooooo barrel bombs, sounds so much worse. Do you not wonder, if Assad was so evil and bad, how he has managed to survive, fighting a war on multiple fronts for so long? someone think he is not too bad, willing to die for the actual internationally recognised Syrian government.
A barrel bomb generally contains HE along with shrapnel and oil; its an indiscriminate weapon designed to induce terror in the local population and is tactically useless unless your really targeting civilians.Those weapons were developed for specific tasks such as taking out bunkers or runways so they have a legitimate military purpose; a barrel bomb on the other hand is a cheap shot at civilians.
Of course those weapons can be used in the same manner as a barrel bomb and in those cases i would agree that they are being used as a weapon of terror rather than for its designed purpose.
Lucas Ayde said:
Blimey! Russian Pilot rescued alive by special forces:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...
Hopefully they didn't injure any of the 'good' insurgents rescuing him .....
Good news story for the "homeland" maybe?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...
Hopefully they didn't injure any of the 'good' insurgents rescuing him .....
barryrs said:
Lucas Ayde said:
Blimey! Russian Pilot rescued alive by special forces:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...
Hopefully they didn't injure any of the 'good' insurgents rescuing him .....
Good news story for the "homeland" maybe?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...
Hopefully they didn't injure any of the 'good' insurgents rescuing him .....
Is that a win overall?
p1stonhead said:
But they lost a soldier who went in to rescue him.....
Is that a win overall?
It definitely will be in the politicians eyes as they got to kick-a*s and the mission was a success so great for PR, however probably not so much for the soldier they lost in the process (or his family).Is that a win overall?
Wills2 said:
Nice to see they went in after them, I think the whole episode is a disgrace if Turkey continues to act like this it's all going to go tits up.
Turkey should not be in NATO. Insane to have allowed them entry. They shor the plane down knowing NATO had to piblically support them.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff