Turkey Shoots Down Jet Near Syria Border
Discussion
Mo D said:
+1 completely agree with all your points (particularly the predicament of Iraq, Libya and now Syria post Western military intervention). I read somewhere that before the 2003 invasion of Iraq, there were no suicide bombings there. now its a regular occurrence.
Find it hugely frustrating and irritating when people forget that ISIS is what it is today only because of massive financial and military support from G20 nations, and also Saudi etc.
I like many others, think outside intervention rarely works, its also mildly alarming Cameron can't wait to bomb ISIS, 2 years after having a motion to bomb Assad was rejected. You would think he would have learned his lesson by now.
All bombing them and other nutters will achieve, is greater reason for them to brainwash others into joining their cause, and more attacks all over the world. its counter productive in the extreme.
The solution to curtailing these murderous bigoted nutters is to deny them the run of large swathes of the middle east (and other areas like parts of North Africa)) which has allowed them to organise and train murderers who are now attacking European cities and citizens.Find it hugely frustrating and irritating when people forget that ISIS is what it is today only because of massive financial and military support from G20 nations, and also Saudi etc.
I like many others, think outside intervention rarely works, its also mildly alarming Cameron can't wait to bomb ISIS, 2 years after having a motion to bomb Assad was rejected. You would think he would have learned his lesson by now.
All bombing them and other nutters will achieve, is greater reason for them to brainwash others into joining their cause, and more attacks all over the world. its counter productive in the extreme.
That means for a start, restoring a strong, stable regime in Syria instead of trying to destroy it. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey (as well as a bunch of US Neocon politicians) don't want that.
The Russians as is their want piled in without establishing clear engagement guidelines with NATO so the likely-hood of this happening, especially with a very jittery Turkey right next door was pretty high and analysts were warning that things might go pear shaped in exactly this fashion.
Unfortunately Russia aren't a nation known for caution or listening to what anyone else says.
I'm sort of glad it was Turkey and not some other Western Nation like the US or France who shot the plane down as they are ALL operating in the area. Things could have been a lot worse.
Unfortunately Russia aren't a nation known for caution or listening to what anyone else says.
I'm sort of glad it was Turkey and not some other Western Nation like the US or France who shot the plane down as they are ALL operating in the area. Things could have been a lot worse.
Guvernator said:
I'm sort of glad it was Turkey and not some other Western Nation like the US or France who shot the plane down as they are ALL operating in the area. Things could have been a lot worse.
When the Russians started bombing I think some PHers raised fears of the US/Russia shooting down each others planes by accident. Presumably they're avoiding this by bombing different people. This is from the Washington Post. That Russian airbase must be busy!
glazbagun said:
When the Russians started bombing I think some PHers raised fears of the US/Russia shooting down each others planes by accident. Presumably they're avoiding this by bombing different people. This is from the Washington Post. That Russian airbase must be busy!
Lol, the Russians bombing West Syria and the Coalition bombing the east, this isn't going to end well, least of all for the Syrians. Both sides as usual fighting a proxy war except this time they are in extreme close proximity. This definitely has potential to go VERY wrong.Rovinghawk said:
Guvernator said:
he's hardly likely to hold his hand up and say "fair dues, I was having so much fun flying about and straffing the Turkmen and stuff that I forgot about a little thing called borders".
Or radar warning receivers.What's the score now ? - Russians - shot down 2 airliners, had one shot down. Had one bomber shot down. One successful annexation. I think they are still ahead. This is the game of Risk, right?
Questions.
The aeroplane was a jet bomber? Had no jet fighters with it because it was thought to be a fairly simple job with minimal threat from the ground?
Is there a solid answer on whether it was a jet fighter or ground missile that shot it down?
Does anyone think that this is not an error as suggested above, but a clumsy attack on an undefended/easy pickings target by Turkey?
The aeroplane was a jet bomber? Had no jet fighters with it because it was thought to be a fairly simple job with minimal threat from the ground?
Is there a solid answer on whether it was a jet fighter or ground missile that shot it down?
Does anyone think that this is not an error as suggested above, but a clumsy attack on an undefended/easy pickings target by Turkey?
cirian75 said:
well if a military plane on a combat mission did not have it, that is a major f
k up by Russia.
Very few aircraft have a 'dedicated emergency radio'. Of the stuff I've flown I can only think of the standby radio on the JP.k up by Russia.There is an internationally recognised (Civil) distress frequency - VHF 121.5 MHz.
There is an equivalent Military frequency - UHF 243.0 MHz.
(You will notice that they are harmonics of one-another)
In my experience, when flying into 'hot' areas (eg Bosnia), we would monitor both (at least in the listening sense while operating on our assigned tactical frequencies). Whether the Russian was in this case I don't know. I do know the Russians monitor (or monitored) 243.0 on their penetrations of the UKADR (United Kingdom Air Defence Region) because they would (sometimes) talk to us.
Why didn't they shadow him and wave him off (not the correct terms obviously) I think we do something like that when the Russians enter or go near our air space.
I don't understand the imperative to shoot the plane down? Other than they wanted to for their own reasons rather than a NATO agreed policy (or maybe it is?) was it really an imminent threat to Turkey, how long was it in their airspace 17 seconds?
I don't understand the imperative to shoot the plane down? Other than they wanted to for their own reasons rather than a NATO agreed policy (or maybe it is?) was it really an imminent threat to Turkey, how long was it in their airspace 17 seconds?
Adam Ansel said:
Comparing Assad to Saddam Hussein and Ghaddafi is incredibly misleading and disingenuous.
Firstly Assad is a relatively small minority Alawite (part of Shia) in a largely Sunni country. So he and his family have always ruled by oppression and the occasional bit of mass murder.
Secondly Assad has killed more people in this revolution than all the other recent Middle East revolutions put together. As many as 300,000, mostly civilians. He uses chemical weapons, white phosphorous and barrel bombs in attacks which have no military value. He just wants to punish disloyal Syrian citizens.
Thirdly all the other Middle East civil wars happened AFTER the dictator was deposed. In Syria the civil war has happened BEFORE the dictator was deposed. This is utterly different. Removing Assad cannot make things worse, it can only make them better.
Fourthly Assad has created millions of refugees, who are headed here. This makes his actions our business. If we are to bomb Syria the target should be Assad, not ISIS.
Anyone who thinks that the migrants are not caused by Assad is deluded, as the facts prove: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/ar...
The only solution for Syria is partition. But politicians outside Syria will not allow that.
Assad killed how many? Are these figures from the Syrian Observatory of human rights by any chance? The one man band clothes shop owner living in Coventry. Credible, very credible. Firstly Assad is a relatively small minority Alawite (part of Shia) in a largely Sunni country. So he and his family have always ruled by oppression and the occasional bit of mass murder.
Secondly Assad has killed more people in this revolution than all the other recent Middle East revolutions put together. As many as 300,000, mostly civilians. He uses chemical weapons, white phosphorous and barrel bombs in attacks which have no military value. He just wants to punish disloyal Syrian citizens.
Thirdly all the other Middle East civil wars happened AFTER the dictator was deposed. In Syria the civil war has happened BEFORE the dictator was deposed. This is utterly different. Removing Assad cannot make things worse, it can only make them better.
Fourthly Assad has created millions of refugees, who are headed here. This makes his actions our business. If we are to bomb Syria the target should be Assad, not ISIS.
Anyone who thinks that the migrants are not caused by Assad is deluded, as the facts prove: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/ar...
The only solution for Syria is partition. But politicians outside Syria will not allow that.
Edited by Adam Ansel on Wednesday 25th November 10:36
Edited by Adam Ansel on Wednesday 25th November 10:38
The deadliest terrorist / State organisation in the world over the last year was not Assad, nor ISIS, but Boko Haram.
Assad did not use chemical weapons, but the media certainly tried hard to make sure it looked like it did, great excuse to impose a no-fly zone and bomb him into capitulation, just like Libya, find the excuse and bombs away. Russia short circuited that attempt on Assad. Notice the similarities with Libya, except Gaddafi was on his own.
Israel uses White Phosphorous in urban areas, as did the US military in Fallujah, why is Assad singled out? should he not use bullets then? but perhaps soft tennis balls in case he hurts a psychotic Islamist terrorists feelings? Ask the French about that now, Assad has been fighting these madmen for years.
And get off the barrel bombs, no matter how many times you repeat then name, will still not make them sound any more dangerous than a metal encased, high explosive, unguided, anti-personnel air dropped munition.
Simon Hersh publish several stories about the "chemical weapons" attack, exposing Al Nusra / Al Qaeda as the protagonists (the new "moderates" in Syria) and subsequent media storm surrounding the need and Justification to bomb Assad. Assad did not use chemical weapons, even the UN did not apportion blame.
You may wonder who Simon Hersh is? He is the US journalist who exposed the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. I suspect he might know a thing or two about cover-ups and biased media coverage.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/11/...
You are not seeing the bigger picture here. Watch this, courtesy of general Wesley Clark, Supreme Allied commander Europe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
Get it now?
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 25th November 22:08
marshall100 said:
Anyway, what are we spunking hard earned tax dollars on F25's when some rusting F16 is nailing Russia's finest?
Governments spunking cash on military vanity projects has little to do with VFM as far as I've been able to tell, but I'd hardly call an SU-24 Russia's finest, and I can't imagine Syria being worth the risk of a single F-22 or SU-35. I Wonder what (if anything) the Russians will use to escort their bombers. Surely the political costs of shooting down a Turkish plane would outweigh any military benefit.marshall100 said:
Anyway, what are we spunking hard earned tax dollars on F25's when some rusting F16 is nailing Russia's finest?
Errr - do you mean F-22 or F-35 ? And the Su-24 is hardly Russia's finest - first flight in 1967 and roughly equivalent to the F-111 which has been out of USAF service since 1996Guvernator said:
irocfan said:
Let's just hope the Greeks don't start shooting down Turkish planes violating their airspace (like they constantly do)...
I assume you are of Greek origin as you keep mentioning this and seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about it?Personally I'd prefer it if there were no airspace boundaries at all as we all live on the same small planet in a very large universe which is indifferent to all our petty concerns. Thousands of years of human "progress" and psychologically, we seem no further forward from the little tribe mentality, fighting over resources\land than we started off with.
h about Russian violations and then do the same to the Greeks just smacks of rank hypocrisy and makes one wonder what other agendas are going on... oh that's right supporting the overthrow of a legal (albeit exceedingly distasteful) regime by a bunch of savages. Classy Turkey, very classy Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff