Unsustainable public sector pensions

[dave_s13]

There's talk of removing bursaries for NHS vocational degrees (nursing, ahp roles) so if you want a free degree then get in there sharpish.

Do what I did. Stop moaning about how the other half live and join the club!

[sidicks]

egor110 said:

So if the public sector pension is such a Big deal why not get a job in the public sector?

It's like me moaning I have to go out and work in all weathers, nobody is stopping me from changing jobs.

Ah, the alternative 'nonsense' argument...

[SpeedMattersNot]

It's about time the private sector pulls its finger out and starts earning enough for this country to enable good quality public services. Until then, yes, the public sector (economy) isn't sustainable.

[dave123456]

the most frustrating thing about the public sector is the (rather large) pockets of entitlement that exist. there are many who believe they should have the same job, that never changes and the pension should be gold plated... these are the same ones who work the flexi system prevalent in a lot of departments to bump their holiday entitlement up by 40%.

the same job, for life, with hours to suit, 55 days leave a year and a guaranteed pension at the end? it isn't commercially viable anywhere...

[egor110]

sidicks said:

egor110 said:

So if the public sector pension is such a Big deal why not get a job in the public sector?

It's like me moaning I have to go out and work in all weathers, nobody is stopping me from changing jobs.

Ah, the alternative 'nonsense' argument...

You didn't actually answer the question.

I might think lawyers are overpaid , my only options are retrain and join them or just deal with the fact they get paid more.

[jules_s]

dave123456 said:

the most frustrating thing about the public sector is the (rather large) pockets of entitlement that exist. there are many who believe they should have the same job, that never changes and the pension should be gold plated... these are the same ones who work the flexi system prevalent in a lot of departments to bump their holiday entitlement up by 40%.

the same job, for life, with hours to suit, 55 days leave a year and a guaranteed pension at the end? it isn't commercially viable anywhere...

Oh please, so it's moan at flexi time now?

[dave123456]

jules_s said:

dave123456 said:

the most frustrating thing about the public sector is the (rather large) pockets of entitlement that exist. there are many who believe they should have the same job, that never changes and the pension should be gold plated... these are the same ones who work the flexi system prevalent in a lot of departments to bump their holiday entitlement up by 40%.

the same job, for life, with hours to suit, 55 days leave a year and a guaranteed pension at the end? it isn't commercially viable anywhere...

Oh please, so it's moan at flexi time now?

Sorry mate... I'll keep my observations to myself in future.

[anonymous-user]

dave123456 said:

jules_s said:

dave123456 said:

these are the same ones who work the flexi system prevalent in a lot of departments to bump their holiday entitlement up by 40%.

the same job, for life, with hours to suit, 55 days leave a year and a guaranteed pension at the end? it isn't commercially viable anywhere...

Oh please, so it's moan at flexi time now?

Sorry mate... I'll keep my observations to myself in future.

Don't do that until you tell me where that job you described above is

[Rovinghawk]

dave_s13 said:

Stop moaning about how the other half live and join the club!

Thus exacerbating the problem. Great idea.

[vonuber]

I could have got a decent pension as an engineer working for the council (you know, replacing all the ones they fired to save money, then suddenly realised they needed, and now can't afford due to even more cuts).

If I wanted to take a 25k paycut for the same level of position that is.

[mph1977]

Johnnytheboy said:

Final salary schemes should be closed to new entrants, and new defined contribution schemes brought in to replace them.

the NHS FS schemes are closed to New entrants iirc and for a proprtion of people they will find themselves in situation where their ongoing contributiuons move to the CARE schemes ...

[///ajd]

vonuber said:

I could have got a decent pension as an engineer working for the council (you know, replacing all the ones they fired to save money, then suddenly realised they needed, and now can't afford due to even more cuts).

If I wanted to take a 25k paycut for the same level of position that is.

Indeed! Watch out though Sidicks read an article saying public and private sector get paid the same, so all these stories of engineers on £15-25k more in the private cannot be true.

I'm sure the people I've seen leave the public sector to be paid twice as much - if not more - in the private sector are just making it up. They left for the same pay, obviously.

LOL.

[mph1977]

dave_s13 said:

There's talk of removing bursaries for NHS vocational degrees (nursing, ahp roles) so if you want a free degree then get in there sharpish.

Do what I did. Stop moaning about how the other half live and join the club!

the bursaries were primarily for Nurse and mid wife pre reg, the bursary support for AHPS amd medicla students was far smaller ... AHP students and the first couple of years of medicine / dentisry are also the usualy 30 summat week academic years rather than 40-45 week academic years that Nursing / midwifery requires due ot the internationally agreed standards on placement hours ( which is why some US trained Registered Nurses cannot get registered in the EU or Antipodes)

[Murph7355]

egor110 said:

So if the public sector pension is such a Big deal why not get a job in the public sector?

It's like me moaning I have to go out and work in all weathers, nobody is stopping me from changing jobs.

Taxpayers moaning about what large elements of their payments go towards is perfectly legitimate without them resorting to adding to the burden by joining the massed ranks.

I have a moan about how much my train fares cost, or what I get in return from restaurant chains. The difference being I have a much more direct choice on whether I continue with those payments or not

Private companies closed their schemes as a result of affordability and a rapid realisation that final salary schemes were not sustainable. The government should do the same thing with public sector pensions in the best interests of its customers.

[pingu393]

vonuber said:

I could have got a decent pension as an engineer working for the council (you know, replacing all the ones they fired to save money, then suddenly realised they needed, and now can't afford due to even more cuts).

If I wanted to take a 25k paycut for the same level of position that is.

I was an engineer in the civil service and my opposite number in industry was commenting (complaining) about my fantastic conditions of service and pension. I pointed out that we were both paid the same, but I never got to see half of my pay, so I was never tempted to spend it .

[wc98]

Murph7355 said:

Private companies closed their schemes as a result of affordability and a rapid realisation that final salary schemes were not sustainable. The government should do the same thing with public sector pensions in the best interests of its customers.

from what i saw most private companies closed those schemes due to serious mismanagement , contribution holidays in the good times (ala british airways) and blatant fraud (maxwell) ,properly run and funded they would have been viable long into the future. the problem is despite us now being a nation of managers we are generally ste at it,and too many at the top are manipulative greedy bds . this is in my ignorant of all things financial personal view though

[otolith]

They have historically been a way of funding increased public spending on the never-never, deferring the costs for some other government and some other taxpayers to deal with - a bit like the abuse of PFI.

[anonymous-user]

When State pensions were set up they were funded from the current account and not an an investment/actuory basis, so the payments I made in the 60's for NHI funded my Grand Dads pension, this was the direct result to improve living standards after the war, and not to repeat the mistakes made after he first war were people returned to squalor.
I find it interesting we did not make the same mistake in the 'Empire', where I Live in Malaysia state pensions are individual, set up at investments, and you get what 'you paid in plus interest'.
I agree with the need for reform today, but can we get the historical position correct it was not a baby boomer attempt to rip of their kids it was actually a valid attempt to improve the lot of their parents, and was a conscious decision, not some error in the calculation.

[sidicks]

wc98 said:

from what i saw most private companies closed those schemes due to serious mismanagement , contribution holidays in the good times (ala british airways) and blatant fraud (maxwell) ,properly run and funded they would have been viable long into the future. the problem is despite us now being a nation of managers we are generally ste at it,and too many at the top are manipulative greedy bds . this is in my ignorant of all things financial personal view though

Blatantly wrong - it shouldn't be too hard to work out that paying contributions of circa 10% of actual salary per annum for 40 years is going to be massively insufficient to fund a pension of 66% of final salary for 25 years or more increasing with inflation, without massive subsidy from the employer / taxpayer.

When people were expected to live for 5-10years in retirement the balance was much more achievable.

The revisions to schemes to CARE etc help slightly but not significantly in terms of ongoing affordability.

[sidicks]

///ajd said:

Indeed! Watch out though Sidicks read an article saying public and private sector get paid the same, so all these stories of engineers on £15-25k more in the private cannot be true.

I've said no such thing - do you not understand the difference between 'averages' and individual examples?

However, see the ONS data for actual evidence of average salaries for directly comparable roles in the public and private sector...

///adj said:

I'm sure the people I've seen leave the public sector to be paid twice as much - if not more - in the private sector are just making it up. They left for the same pay, obviously.

LOL.

I'm sure you think your comments mean something relevant!