Where do your earnings rank you?

[loafer123]

Barristers and judges must include magistrate stipends to get the average that low.

[emicen]

Dromedary66 said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

That would be to know this handle is go and this handle is stop?

To be fair there is a bit more to know than just that.

For instance they all need to know when to go on strike.

Don't forget the open and close buttons for the doors.

[cymtriks]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Some are hard to believe, but I guess it's an average of the profession.

The average is always distorted upwards.
No one earns a negative amount
No one earns less than the amount that makes it worthwhile
Every job has a few people who are doing very well

Also job titles can be misleading
What does the title mean? Is Engineer a car mechanic or an expert in designing stealth aircraft?
Bill gates described himself as a senior programmer, are some people included in the average that you wouldn't include?

Etc...

[Digga]

I searched in vain for the "Target for middle management hostility" role. In terms of earnings, I assume it's too low on the scale to register.

[P5BNij]

PurpleMoonlight said:

P5BNij said:

We're paid for what we know, not just what we do...!

That would be to know this handle is go and this handle is stop?

Bugger, I've been rumbled...

If I drew you a map of my 'route card' you'd probably think a large drunken spider had crawled across the page leaving a trail of ink in its wake in all directions... the varied route knowledge we have to learn and retain adds up to 'quite a lot', throw in the rules and traction and it's 'quite a lot more'...! Imagine(for instance) commuting to work on the entire length of the M1, M6, M40 and M25 combined, having to know intimately every bit of signage, every bridge, every junction, every pothole, every gradient and a whole lot more besides, then having to sign a legal document that you are competent to drive over those routes in all conditions day or night, and be regularly tested on that knowledge - there's far more to it than twiddling knobs and pulling levers. Granted, there's a lot of sitting about (damn those pesky signallers), tea drinking and hanging around mess rooms due to diagraming and pathing issues, but there is still some skill involved in how we actually do the job.

As a disclaimer I should add that there are certainly many professions who earn less than I do who should be much better rewarded for their efforts... I could never see myself as a copper, a nurse or (God forbid) a high fallutin' office type

[Bluebarge]

loafer123 said:

Barristers and judges must include magistrate stipends to get the average that low.

Junior criminal barristers earn bugger all, as do solicitors who do criminal work.

[rdjohn]

easytiger123 said:

Barristers and judges £36,916!!

A barrister friend has just retired and that figure is just about what he got as a tax rebate from HMRC this year.

Sure he had to pay his Clerk a 10% fee and his PII is significant and they operate on negative cash flow, but that figure would have been quite small change. They cannot rap themselves with Ltd Co status.

Another friend earned about £75,000 in his first year in chambers.

[Digga]

cymtriks said:

Bill gates described himself as a senior programmer...

He's packed that in now.

Still messing up the average earnings for the "Kermit the Frog Impersonators" though.

[DavidJG]

Some of the less varied ones are also bullsh!t.

I don't know many IT Directors / CIOs who're on a figure as low as those quoted there. Same with Sales & Marketing / CEO level roles.

Looking at this, a large part of it is pure fantasy.

[rsv gone!]

Quantity Surveyors are down 2% on last year? Nothing could be further than the truth.

I guess it's an average across the country.

Air traffic controllers are on more than I would have guessed.

[PositronicRay]

P5BNij said:

Bugger, I've been rumbled...

If I drew you a map of my 'route card' you'd probably think a large drunken spider had crawled across the page leaving a trail of ink in its wake in all directions... the varied route knowledge we have to learn and retain adds up to 'quite a lot', throw in the rules and traction and it's 'quite a lot more'...! Imagine(for instance) commuting to work on the entire length of the M1, M6, M40 and M25 combined, having to know intimately every bit of signage, every bridge, every junction, every pothole, every gradient and a whole lot more besides, then having to sign a legal document that you are competent to drive over those routes in all conditions day or night, and be regularly tested on that knowledge - there's far more to it than twiddling knobs and pulling levers. Granted, there's a lot of sitting about (damn those pesky signallers), tea drinking and hanging around mess rooms due to diagraming and pathing issues, but there is still some skill involved in how we actually do the job.

As a disclaimer I should add that there are certainly many professions who earn less than I do who should be much better rewarded for their efforts... I could never see myself as a copper, a nurse or (God forbid) a high fallutin' office type

How do you learn all the routes? Do you ride "shotgun" 1st? How long does it take to learn a route before you can sign for it?

[stuartmmcfc]

BAt the top, the salary may be correct but it doesn't take into account extras like bonuses, health care, share options etc.
I know someone very, very well who is a Chief exec and the salary is about right.
However, last year their bonus alone was equal to their salary, as was their share option,
These sort of things weren't available to me as a plasterer

[gruffalo]

rdjohn said:

easytiger123 said:

Barristers and judges £36,916!!

A barrister friend has just retired and that figure is just about what he got as a tax rebate from HMRC this year.

Sure he had to pay his Clerk a 10% fee and his PII is significant and they operate on negative cash flow, but that figure would have been quite small change. They cannot rap themselves with Ltd Co status.

Another friend earned about £75,000 in his first year in chambers.

Many Barristers earn the square root of Farque Hall, legal aid defense barristers for example until they earn their strips and get the better cases.

[P5BNij]

PositronicRay said:

P5BNij said:

Bugger, I've been rumbled...

If I drew you a map of my 'route card' you'd probably think a large drunken spider had crawled across the page leaving a trail of ink in its wake in all directions... the varied route knowledge we have to learn and retain adds up to 'quite a lot', throw in the rules and traction and it's 'quite a lot more'...! Imagine(for instance) commuting to work on the entire length of the M1, M6, M40 and M25 combined, having to know intimately every bit of signage, every bridge, every junction, every pothole, every gradient and a whole lot more besides, then having to sign a legal document that you are competent to drive over those routes in all conditions day or night, and be regularly tested on that knowledge - there's far more to it than twiddling knobs and pulling levers. Granted, there's a lot of sitting about (damn those pesky signallers), tea drinking and hanging around mess rooms due to diagraming and pathing issues, but there is still some skill involved in how we actually do the job.

As a disclaimer I should add that there are certainly many professions who earn less than I do who should be much better rewarded for their efforts... I could never see myself as a copper, a nurse or (God forbid) a high fallutin' office type

How do you learn all the routes? Do you ride "shotgun" 1st? How long does it take to learn a route before you can sign for it?

Yes, we ride shotgun with other drivers until we've learnt it all by heart. It depends on the length and complexity of the route, IIRC I was given about five weeks to learn Rugby to Crewe via Birmingham, Bescot (Walsall area) and the Trent Valley, you only sign the route when you're happy to do so. As it happens I've got three days road learning next week, Acton to Battersea via Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction with a couple of other drivers, we've been promised a spare engine to do it on which means we don't have to faff about with cab passes and travelling on other companies trains. Occasionally it can take longer than expected, when I learnt Birmingham to Banbury, Oxford and Didcot for the first two days I was refused entry to the cab of a Virgin Voyager because the driver was newly qualified and was not allowed to have route learners with him for another two years.

[RYH64E]

What that table shows is that you're unlikely to get rich working for someone else, even self employed plumbers and bricklayers would be in the top 15 of that list (based on a low £225 day rate plus profits on materials).

To make real money (or lose the lot if it all goes wrong...) you need to work for yourself and build a business.

[PositronicRay]

P5BNij said:

PositronicRay said:

P5BNij said:

Bugger, I've been rumbled...

If I drew you a map of my 'route card' you'd probably think a large drunken spider had crawled across the page leaving a trail of ink in its wake in all directions... the varied route knowledge we have to learn and retain adds up to 'quite a lot', throw in the rules and traction and it's 'quite a lot more'...! Imagine(for instance) commuting to work on the entire length of the M1, M6, M40 and M25 combined, having to know intimately every bit of signage, every bridge, every junction, every pothole, every gradient and a whole lot more besides, then having to sign a legal document that you are competent to drive over those routes in all conditions day or night, and be regularly tested on that knowledge - there's far more to it than twiddling knobs and pulling levers. Granted, there's a lot of sitting about (damn those pesky signallers), tea drinking and hanging around mess rooms due to diagraming and pathing issues, but there is still some skill involved in how we actually do the job.

As a disclaimer I should add that there are certainly many professions who earn less than I do who should be much better rewarded for their efforts... I could never see myself as a copper, a nurse or (God forbid) a high fallutin' office type

How do you learn all the routes? Do you ride "shotgun" 1st? How long does it take to learn a route before you can sign for it?

Yes, we ride shotgun with other drivers until we've learnt it all by heart. It depends on the length and complexity of the route, IIRC I was given about five weeks to learn Rugby to Crewe via Birmingham, Bescot (Walsall area) and the Trent Valley, you only sign the route when you're happy to do so. As it happens I've got three days road learning next week, Acton to Battersea via Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction with a couple of other drivers, we've been promised a spare engine to do it on which means we don't have to faff about with cab passes and travelling on other companies trains. Occasionally it can take longer than expected, when I learnt Birmingham to Banbury, Oxford and Didcot for the first two days I was refused entry to the cab of a Virgin Voyager because the driver was newly qualified and was not allowed to have route learners with him for another two years.

Thanks, I'm guessing that level of knowledge means poaching staff must be rife. Keeps the wages up.

[P5BNij]

PositronicRay said:

Thanks, I'm guessing that level of knowledge means poaching staff must be rife. Keeps the wages up.

It's a bit of a merry-go-round, yes! Firms like Virgin and Eurostar can pretty much take who they want, but it isn't always that easy to jump ship. Few firms want to pay for driver training which leads to new recruits with two or three years service jumping ship once they're fully trained up. It can take up to a year to train a driver from scratch and while that takes place he / she isn't being productive. We have two recently passed out trainee drivers at our depot who will spend the next few months riding around road learning before they can drive on their own.

As for the wages.... the money was crap in BR days with everyone relying on overtime!

[otolith]

DavidJG said:

Some of the less varied ones are also bullsh!t.

I don't know many IT Directors / CIOs who're on a figure as low as those quoted there. Same with Sales & Marketing / CEO level roles.

Looking at this, a large part of it is pure fantasy.

I would imagine that the figures are more representative of pay in SMEs than large corporates.

[Jon321]

Air Traffic Controllers, £75k. That's rather good. I mean, I know they do a job that's very important to avoid planes crashing into each other, but even so.

[voyds9]

cymtriks said:

The average is always distorted upwards.
No one earns a negative amount
No one earns less than the amount that makes it worthwhile
Every job has a few people who are doing very well

Also job titles can be misleading
What does the title mean? Is Engineer a car mechanic or an expert in designing stealth aircraft?
Bill gates described himself as a senior programmer, are some people included in the average that you wouldn't include?

Etc...

So mums going back to work part time will raise the average.