Discussion
Mario149 said:
My MEP? Our EU Commissioner?
The main issue it seems is not one of democracy, just that we don't like some of the decisions that are being made because we don't have a "majority" or veto. That is fair enough but that and alleged lack of democracy are 2 separate issues. It's a larger version of an MP for a constituency other than my one voting a way I don't like to impose a law on me I don't like - and me not being able to vote him away.
It seems we can complain to our MEPs/Commissioner or have them removed/changed every 5 years, we just don't like that other countries have a say over things that affect us.
If you don't like other countries voting on our things, fair enough, you should vote to leave. But it shouldn't be dressed up as saying it's undemocratic and that we don't as a country have a say over what goes on in the EU
We don't have a Commissoner, once in post they don't represent a particular country. European Parliament doesn't approve appointments and is unable to remove once in post, it requires a 2/3 majority to remove the entire Commission which is very rarely used if ever.The main issue it seems is not one of democracy, just that we don't like some of the decisions that are being made because we don't have a "majority" or veto. That is fair enough but that and alleged lack of democracy are 2 separate issues. It's a larger version of an MP for a constituency other than my one voting a way I don't like to impose a law on me I don't like - and me not being able to vote him away.
It seems we can complain to our MEPs/Commissioner or have them removed/changed every 5 years, we just don't like that other countries have a say over things that affect us.
If you don't like other countries voting on our things, fair enough, you should vote to leave. But it shouldn't be dressed up as saying it's undemocratic and that we don't as a country have a say over what goes on in the EU
It's the democracy of decision making in the UK that people are concerned about. I don't want to have a small influence of what happens in Greece at the expense of a larger influence in UK legislation and government policy.
CaptainSlow said:
Mario149 said:
My MEP? Our EU Commissioner?
The main issue it seems is not one of democracy, just that we don't like some of the decisions that are being made because we don't have a "majority" or veto. That is fair enough but that and alleged lack of democracy are 2 separate issues. It's a larger version of an MP for a constituency other than my one voting a way I don't like to impose a law on me I don't like - and me not being able to vote him away.
It seems we can complain to our MEPs/Commissioner or have them removed/changed every 5 years, we just don't like that other countries have a say over things that affect us.
If you don't like other countries voting on our things, fair enough, you should vote to leave. But it shouldn't be dressed up as saying it's undemocratic and that we don't as a country have a say over what goes on in the EU
We don't have a Commissoner, once in post they don't represent a particular country. European Parliament doesn't approve appointments and is unable to remove once in post, it requires a 2/3 majority to remove the entire Commission which is very rarely used if ever.The main issue it seems is not one of democracy, just that we don't like some of the decisions that are being made because we don't have a "majority" or veto. That is fair enough but that and alleged lack of democracy are 2 separate issues. It's a larger version of an MP for a constituency other than my one voting a way I don't like to impose a law on me I don't like - and me not being able to vote him away.
It seems we can complain to our MEPs/Commissioner or have them removed/changed every 5 years, we just don't like that other countries have a say over things that affect us.
If you don't like other countries voting on our things, fair enough, you should vote to leave. But it shouldn't be dressed up as saying it's undemocratic and that we don't as a country have a say over what goes on in the EU
It's the democracy of decision making in the UK that people are concerned about. I don't want to have a small influence of what happens in Greece at the expense of a larger influence in UK legislation and government policy.
This is Downing Street’s summary of his phone call with Angela Merkel today:
"[The Prime Minister] noted that the scale of what we are asking for means we will not resolve this is one go and consequently who did not expect to get agreement at the December European Council. Instead, we should keep up the pace of discussions and use the summit for a substantive discussion of the proposed changes in each area."
That looks like a very efrective negotiating stance.
I think that Dan Hannan summed it up very well in a Tweet thgis morning:-
"We're pretending to ask for concessions, the EU is pretending to consider them. It's a joke."
"[The Prime Minister] noted that the scale of what we are asking for means we will not resolve this is one go and consequently who did not expect to get agreement at the December European Council. Instead, we should keep up the pace of discussions and use the summit for a substantive discussion of the proposed changes in each area."
That looks like a very efrective negotiating stance.
I think that Dan Hannan summed it up very well in a Tweet thgis morning:-
"We're pretending to ask for concessions, the EU is pretending to consider them. It's a joke."
Mario149 said:
From the info I have garnered so far, I'd be happy with the status quo (in terms of the democratic process in the EU) with say a mandatory referendum on whether the UK wants to stay in say once every 10 years.
I do think that the running of the EU lacks transparency, but not in the sense of undemocratic shady deals. For me it's the sense we don't get the visibility of the EU government that we do of Westminster. We have no "buy in" to the process that's going on like we do in our national gov. We see news on what politicians in the HoC are discussing/voting on, but hardly ever hear anything on what our MEPs are doing. And who seriously looked up the MEP they voted for the last time? I know I didn't. And I consider myself quite politically active: I follow what's going on in Westminster politics, what the issues of the day are and what positions people hold.
If we were all engaged more on EU level politics/debates/votes, I suspect we would feel less like we didn't have a voice.
Anyway, just my 2p worth
that is a strange position to take when you admittedly have not had too hard a look at how things work, or in most cases don't at eu level.I do think that the running of the EU lacks transparency, but not in the sense of undemocratic shady deals. For me it's the sense we don't get the visibility of the EU government that we do of Westminster. We have no "buy in" to the process that's going on like we do in our national gov. We see news on what politicians in the HoC are discussing/voting on, but hardly ever hear anything on what our MEPs are doing. And who seriously looked up the MEP they voted for the last time? I know I didn't. And I consider myself quite politically active: I follow what's going on in Westminster politics, what the issues of the day are and what positions people hold.
If we were all engaged more on EU level politics/debates/votes, I suspect we would feel less like we didn't have a voice.
Anyway, just my 2p worth
every person i know that has intimate knowledge of eu machinations relating to their particular sector agrees it is a clusterf
k of epic proportions. take the common fisheries policy , stocks of every single commercially viable species were depleted to the lowest levels ever in eu waters as a direct result of eu mismanagement. the worst aspect of this was as much as 50% of what was caught each year was discarded dead , not landed for food,as a result of piss poor management by the commission responsible.before anyone comments that mixed fisheries are difficult to manage, norway, russia and iceland all manage fine. in this case the actual politics is the biggest problem. instead of having a benefit to the eu fisheries as a whole outlook, the horse trading regarding quotas and interpretation of scientific assessments between regions is the main influence in diluting meaningful management measures.
nepotism and cronyism is rife. it would not take too much digging to see where a lot of the missing money has gone.eu politicians at local level and private companies were not building roads to nowhere for the fun of it,nor subsidising solar energy generation at night because it was value for money for the eu taxpayers. it is one massive scam at worst ,at best an unnecessary multiple tier of unneeded bureaucracy whose funding would be better spent elsewhere.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No he didn't, no one voted to join either the Common Market or the EU.Appreciate and agree with the sentiment though. We haven't got what was sold to the electorate in 1975, and what will happen in the future if the UK stays in isn't what will be sold to us this time either.
British people are best placed to decide what is best for the country, we don't need an unelected, unaccountable, incompetent group of foreign bureaucrats making a telling us whilst making a complete mess of pretty much everything they get involved with.
Edited by CaptainSlow on Thursday 3rd December 19:42
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In a similar way my parents feel the same, my mum is physically upset sometimes at the state of her town, the friends and neighbours she once had have moved away to be replaced with foreigners that don't even try to acknowledge or speak to her.Only recently we have been seriously considering moving out of Europe and opportunities elsewhere in the world. If we remain part of the EU after the referendum we will most likely leave.
FiF said:
Technically that's absolutely true. It's made absolutely clear to Commissioners that henceforth they represent only the interests of the EU and must not and do not represent their nation. They meet once a week, the agenda for their meeting is decided by the unelected President and is taken selectively from the work of the unelected employees of the Directorates-General. This is the sole institution which can propose laws. Any elected officials have little or no say, they can, if invited, sit on committees which look at specifics in legislation, but their recommendations are simply that.
That's enough for me. I vote leave.Rovinghawk said:
FiF said:
Technically that's absolutely true. It's made absolutely clear to Commissioners that henceforth they represent only the interests of the EU and must not and do not represent their nation. They meet once a week, the agenda for their meeting is decided by the unelected President and is taken selectively from the work of the unelected employees of the Directorates-General. This is the sole institution which can propose laws. Any elected officials have little or no say, they can, if invited, sit on committees which look at specifics in legislation, but their recommendations are simply that.
That's enough for me. I vote leave.XCP said:
Rovinghawk said:
FiF said:
Technically that's absolutely true. It's made absolutely clear to Commissioners that henceforth they represent only the interests of the EU and must not and do not represent their nation. They meet once a week, the agenda for their meeting is decided by the unelected President and is taken selectively from the work of the unelected employees of the Directorates-General. This is the sole institution which can propose laws. Any elected officials have little or no say, they can, if invited, sit on committees which look at specifics in legislation, but their recommendations are simply that.
That's enough for me. I vote leave.Appointed = rubber stamping the person they are told to appoint.
Edited by FiF on Thursday 3rd December 21:05
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's a rather poignant post. I remember the vote in 75. We were told that we were voting on a single market. We were lied to.Heath lied to us. He knew what the first sentence of the Treaty of Rome meant. Many of us had read it. We just didn't believe it. Funnily, many people still don't get it.
Here is the first sentence of tbe 1957 treaty of Rome.
Treaty of Rome said:
His Majesty The King of the Belgians, the President of the Federal Republic of Germany, the President of the French Republic, the President of the Italian Republic, Her Royal Highness The Grand Duchess of Luxembourg, Her Majesty The Queen of the Netherlands,
Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,
I don't understand why I didn't believe it at the time. Then again, most other people didn't get it. However, since then we have had Maastricht, Schengen, Lisbon as well as the Euro. All of these things have shown that "Ever closer union" is what the whole project is all about.Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,
What surprises me is that there are some people who still believe that the EU is about free trade. You would think that they would have got the message when the "European Econimic Community" changed its name to the European Union.
If we stay in, then the unification will continue, just as it has ever since we joined. Europe will become a single country.
The EU will not become a single country. It just wants to assimilate nation states, to grow for the benefit of the brainwashed Eurocrats and their global socialist progressive ideal, and God be damned to the electorate.
The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
steveT350C said:
The EU will not become a single country. It just wants to assimilate nation states, to grow for the benefit of the brainwashed Eurocrats and their global socialist progressive ideal, and God be damned to the electorate.
The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
Enlargement of the EU what's not to like, more power and influence for the unelected minions of the EU.The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
PRTVR said:
steveT350C said:
The EU will not become a single country. It just wants to assimilate nation states, to grow for the benefit of the brainwashed Eurocrats and their global socialist progressive ideal, and God be damned to the electorate.
The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
Enlargement of the EU what's not to like, more power and influence for the unelected minions of the EU.The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
Anyone who can't see that the actions of the EU are effectively the same as a nation on a massive power drive just isn't looking.
This morning on the north east news there was a piece on Nissan at Sunderland, they are making their new luxury car the infinity there, at the end it was mentioned that the French government are sticking their nose's in, who would have thought it, the French looking after themselves, that could impact on the sunderland plant, how can we have further integration, which is what will happen if we stay in, when our partners are prepared to stitch us up.
PRTVR said:
steveT350C said:
The EU will not become a single country. It just wants to assimilate nation states, to grow for the benefit of the brainwashed Eurocrats and their global socialist progressive ideal, and God be damned to the electorate.
The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
Enlargement of the EU what's not to like, more power and influence for the unelected minions of the EU.The behemoth that is the EU is ultimately responsible for the tragic results of their multicultural experiment.
Turkey, 70 odd million, being fast-tracked assimilated into the EU?
Why?
By any logic, Greece should have been allowed - even helped to - default and begin re-balancing it's economy and have some way out of perpetual austerity, but that didn't happen, for the same reason; the EU will not cede power and territory.
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