Brexit

Author
Discussion

Einion Yrth

19,575 posts

243 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Moominho said:
I just don't feel that our independence etc is affected by being in the EU.
I really struggle to see how you can hold this view. It's conceivable to me that some would not view our loss of sovereignty as a problem, but to actually deny that it has happened and is happening? That I find difficult to get my mind behind.

Alex

9,975 posts

283 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Moominho said:
So for me, those reasons don't bother me. It's not a lack of patriotism, or apathy. I just don't feel that our independence etc is affected by being in the EU. It's the economic argument that will steer me.
Our independence is not affected? Everything from border control to the tampon tax is beyond the control of our own parliament while we remain a member of the EU. And they haven't even got started. The EU wants its own army and to unify tax rates. If that happens, general elections will be even more pointless than they are now.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
dudleybloke said:
Its a disgrace that we have given away our Democratic rights to foreigners.
We haven't. The UK Govt. has concluded agreements on our behalf, as it would do outside the EU. If you don't like those agreements you can (a) put pressure on your MP (b) put pressure on your MEP.

If we left the EU you would no longer have access to an MEP (so one fewer lever to influence how you are governed) but would have no more ability to influence your MP or HMG.

The "democratic" argument is bogus. If you want more democracy, you need to start with Westminster - leaving the EU wouldn't give you any more rights at all, arguably quite the opposite - we have much better consumer rights and human rights protection under the EU umbrella than we did before, or would likely have obtained from our own Westminster representatives.

Rovinghawk

Original Poster:

13,300 posts

157 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
If you don't like those agreements you can..........(b) put pressure on your MEP.
Seriously? How?

CaptainSlow

13,179 posts

211 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
We haven't. The UK Govt. has concluded agreements on our behalf, as it would do outside the EU. If you don't like those agreements you can (a) put pressure on your MP (b) put pressure on your MEP.

If we left the EU you would no longer have access to an MEP (so one fewer lever to influence how you are governed) but would have no more ability to influence your MP or HMG.

The "democratic" argument is bogus. If you want more democracy, you need to start with Westminster - leaving the EU wouldn't give you any more rights at all, arguably quite the opposite - we have much better consumer rights and human rights protection under the EU umbrella than we did before, or would likely have obtained from our own Westminster representatives.
Sorry, I completely disagree.

The EU is a run away train, this is possibly the last opportunity to jump off. Would you not jump off a train that was going over a cliff because you were worried about where you'd land?

Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
PugwasHDJ80 said:
He used to be my economics lecturer at Cardiff- a very bright guy
Very bright. Probably the only reason we hear less from him in the media is that his opinions do not fit with the fashionable, narrowly-defined views of the neo-Keynsian club.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Alex said:
Our independence is not affected? Everything from border control to the tampon tax is beyond the control of our own parliament while we remain a member of the EU. And they haven't even got started. The EU wants its own army and to unify tax rates. If that happens, general elections will be even more pointless than they are now.
We control our own borders, VAT harmonisation is inevitable in a single market, but we benefit from the certainty that gives our exporters (for whom the EU represents 45% of the UK export market). There is no policy for an EU army and general tax harmonisation is not on the cards either. On the contrary we are far more likely to have a 2-speed Europe split between Euro and non-Euro zones, with potentially some countries dropping out of the Euro. This "EU Superstate" idea is proper tin-foil hat territory - won't happen as the electorates of the big Eurozone countries don't want it.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
CaptainSlow said:
Sorry, I completely disagree.

The EU is a run away train, this is possibly the last opportunity to jump off. Would you not jump off a train that was going over a cliff because you were worried about where you'd land?
You may well disagree but you haven't produced any information to dispute the basic facts, and I don't expect you to either, because they are, well, facts.

Your choo-choo analogy is also wrong - read some proper newspapers, including some European ones - there is no appetite for an EU superstate - that is an Eurosceptic fantasy to frighten the hard of thinking. Parliament is still sovereign and can opt to do whatever it likes.

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Rovinghawk said:
Seriously? How?
http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps.html

dudleybloke

19,718 posts

185 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
We haven't. The UK Govt. has concluded agreements on our behalf, as it would do outside the EU. If you don't like those agreements you can (a) put pressure on your MP (b) put pressure on your MEP.

If we left the EU you would no longer have access to an MEP (so one fewer lever to influence how you are governed) but would have no more ability to influence your MP or HMG.

The "democratic" argument is bogus. If you want more democracy, you need to start with Westminster - leaving the EU wouldn't give you any more rights at all, arguably quite the opposite - we have much better consumer rights and human rights protection under the EU umbrella than we did before, or would likely have obtained from our own Westminster representatives.
Remember the windfall tax that CMD said he wasn't going to pay? How did that go?

XJ40

5,983 posts

212 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
I think the biggest problem with the so called European project is with centralised power and that lack of democracy and accountability that entails. On a more local level we've seen increased devolution which I see as a move forward, this european centralisation goes against that. I think some agreed fundermental ideals and laws with our European neighbours are essential, but the current situation has gone too far with specific laws and needs reform.

In a sense all boundries/borders are arbitary and invented, so for me patriotism/nationalism is a poor arguement for exit. That said, you do have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and history (and to an extent geography and ethnicity) has given us the nation states that we have today, rightly or wrongly. I've nothing against people wanting to be patriotic, in the same way people are free to practice religion, neither should interfere with the way states are run though in my opinion.


CaptainSlow

13,179 posts

211 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
We control our own borders, VAT harmonisation is inevitable in a single market, but we benefit from the certainty that gives our exporters (for whom the EU represents 45% of the UK export market). There is no policy for an EU army and general tax harmonisation is not on the cards either. On the contrary we are far more likely to have a 2-speed Europe split between Euro and non-Euro zones, with potentially some countries dropping out of the Euro. This "EU Superstate" idea is proper tin-foil hat territory - won't happen as the electorates of the big Eurozone countries don't want it.
This view would be funny if it wasn't so damaging.

eta

Bluebarge said:
VAT harmonisation is inevitable in a single market,
Bluebarge said:
There is no policy for ... and general tax harmonisation .
Huh?

Edited by CaptainSlow on Monday 30th November 16:07

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
dudleybloke said:
Remember the windfall tax that CMD said he wasn't going to pay? How did that go?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/605833/Britain-EU-bill-unacceptable-Cameron

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
and general tax harmonisation is not on the cards either.
Weren't they voting on this kind of thing just the other day?

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20151126...

Rovinghawk

Original Poster:

13,300 posts

157 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
Rovinghawk said:
Seriously? How?
http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps.html
And when the MEPs ignore everyone, what happens then?

KrissKross

2,182 posts

100 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Moominho said:
I also find this unlikely. As I said, I am not particularly invested in either outcome, I'm probably slightly on the remain in the EU side at the moment. But it seems the Brexit side are a lot more pushy about the whole thing. Some anyway, not all. It's a bit like the Scottish Independence referendum where anyone wanting to stay in the UK was branded a traitor and someone who doesn't love their country.
How can you find facts unlikely?

Also most of the people who want out of the EU are also the ones who passionately want Scotland to remain part of the UK!

CaptainSlow

13,179 posts

211 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Esseesse said:
Bluebarge said:
and general tax harmonisation is not on the cards either.
Weren't they voting on this kind of thing just the other day?

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20151126...
And no plans for an EU army?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/e...

Rovinghawk

Original Poster:

13,300 posts

157 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
I believe we pay lots of money in & get access to a Single Market worth 4-5% of UK GDP a year
Turnover, gross profit, net profit, unprofitable?

There's a lot of unknowns regarding would we be better or worse off- your link doesn't (can't) quantify what will be different following a Brexit.

I'm willing to be persuaded but only by facts & figures (or potential for them) rather than by dogma.

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
wolves_wanderer said:
Happy to be convinced either way as I am completely on the fence. I don't particularly believe claims that we would be signing free trade deals with all and sundry in the first week after exit but neither do I believe that we are doomed if we exit.
there is a view that running with no trade deal could actually be the better outcome....
I would agree however we would need a lot of agreements on mutual standard setting.

The problem of that option is of cause the financial service industry where every UK financial service company would need to create a regulated entity within the EU to continue to do business within the EU. I would estimate 20K-50K UK jobs would be lost.

Robertj21a

16,475 posts

104 months

Monday 30th November 2015
quotequote all
Alex said:
The real reasons we should leave are for sovereignty, independence and democracy. The EU is undemocratic and unaccountable. That's why we should leave whether we will be better off or not.
Well said, simple and to the point. I'm very happy being British and it's served us well for very many generations, I don't want to be ruled by some organisation that can ride roughshod over all of that.