Bomb someone in Syria poll - will it work
Poll: Bomb someone in Syria poll - will it work
Total Members Polled: 353
Discussion
Maajid Nawaz said:
Beyond ISIS, the question of what to do with Assad in Syria remains. As part of a deal with Russia and Iran, the Syrian regime should be kept intact, to avoid the abyss that engulfed post-Saddam Iraq. But, put simply, Assad must go. There will be no peace while Assad remains in power. Likewise, the international community must simultaneously oversee the eventual disarming of all militia as part of any peace deal that absorbed them into a new Syrian Federation. As Libya demonstrates, armed militia will ruin any fragile peace within the blink of an eye.
A Syria and Iraq strategy cannot succeed divorced from a regional strategy. ISIS still has a strong hold in Libya, and could fall back there. Sisi’s Egypt must be encouraged to work with the transitional Libyan government in common purpose against ISIS, while liberalizing, and absorbing their respective opposition.
But none of this will work anywhere if Arab civil society is not supported in challenging the appeal of Islamism at the grass roots. ISIS is merely one of the manifestations of a global jihadist insurgency, which in turn is merely the violent spasm of Islamism taking root in the region. No insurgency survives this long without significant enough support on the ground, and it is this support that must be sapped. Counter-Islamism and democratic reform on the Arab street are the only way forward. The alternative to Islamist theocracy cannot be more Arab monarchy.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/01/how-isis-suckered-the-west.htmlA Syria and Iraq strategy cannot succeed divorced from a regional strategy. ISIS still has a strong hold in Libya, and could fall back there. Sisi’s Egypt must be encouraged to work with the transitional Libyan government in common purpose against ISIS, while liberalizing, and absorbing their respective opposition.
But none of this will work anywhere if Arab civil society is not supported in challenging the appeal of Islamism at the grass roots. ISIS is merely one of the manifestations of a global jihadist insurgency, which in turn is merely the violent spasm of Islamism taking root in the region. No insurgency survives this long without significant enough support on the ground, and it is this support that must be sapped. Counter-Islamism and democratic reform on the Arab street are the only way forward. The alternative to Islamist theocracy cannot be more Arab monarchy.
Rogue86 said:
Lets say everything goes to plan, we commit a world-changing pair of Tornados that tip the balance in the coalitions favour and IS are dead by Christmas.
What next? What happens when Assad and Russia start eradicating all the anti-government troops we've been supplying?
There are, quite simply (ironically), too many different mini-conflicts within this.What next? What happens when Assad and Russia start eradicating all the anti-government troops we've been supplying?
Assad back in full control suits us to be honest (from a security point of view, although I believe Cameron has said keeping him in power is not an option) but do Syrians want him back? Turkey?
Let's face it, it'll just be a cluster f
k for years to come.allnighter said:
We'll have a stable country ruled with an iron fisted dictator. That's good enough for me and a lot better than the st nest with all the DAESH flies in it and around it.
So you think we'll just quietly step aside after (potentially years of) training big Daves 70k strong army and let Russia obliterate our state-funded armoury of hand-me-down toys?t nest with all the DAESH flies in it and around it.Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 2nd December 21:02
Patrick Bateman said:
Rogue86 said:
Lets say everything goes to plan, we commit a world-changing pair of Tornados that tip the balance in the coalitions favour and IS are dead by Christmas.
What next? What happens when Assad and Russia start eradicating all the anti-government troops we've been supplying?
There are, quite simply (ironically), too many different mini-conflicts within this.What next? What happens when Assad and Russia start eradicating all the anti-government troops we've been supplying?
Assad back in full control suits us to be honest (from a security point of view, although I believe Cameron has said keeping him in power is not an option) but do Syrians want him back? Turkey?
Let's face it, it'll just be a cluster f
k for years to come.It's NOT up to us in the West or up to some armed mercenaries who have no representation amongst the population either. CMD or Obama have no say in Assad's fate. All we can do is undo the damage we have already done, disarm the f
kers we have armed for years up to now, and help return stability to Syrians so they can choose their own destiny. The legal president is still Assad till Syrians say otherwise in the ballots.The Syrian army and the Syrian police force should be allowed to resume the task of ensuring security in Syria with our help and unconditionally. The main objective here is to eradicate extremism and ISIS as a primary objective. Any utopic vision of western style democracy in the region should be the last thing on our minds. Let them sort it out with their dictator. It's not our place to tell them which way the sun rises or sets.
Charlie1986 said:
When will the vote take place? is it tonight?
Result just announced. Majority of 179 in favour of extending bombing into Syria. Edit - sorry, that was the result for a proposed amendment to block extending bombing. Main result yet to come.
Edited by lauda on Wednesday 2nd December 22:24
Rogue86 said:
allnighter said:
We'll have a stable country ruled with an iron fisted dictator. That's good enough for me and a lot better than the st nest with all the DAESH flies in it and around it.
So you think we'll just quietly step aside after (potentially years of) training big Daves 70k strong army and let Russia obliterate our state-funded armoury of hand-me-down toys?t nest with all the DAESH flies in it and around it.Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 2nd December 21:02
ked up. Now there are 3 choices left to us:1/ We continue as we are now and fit Einstein's definition of insanity.(If in doubt Google it)
2/ We step aside and let the Russian sort it out.
3/ We eat humble pie, make an alliance with Russia and Assad's army and annihilate DAESH once and for all.
Our call!
allnighter said:
Agreed, and it's up to the Syrians to decide whether Assad is still fit to rule them or not.
It's NOT up to us in the West or up to some armed mercenaries who have no representation amongst the population either. CMD or Obama have no say in Assad's fate. All we can do is undo the damage we have already done, disarm the fkers we have armed for years up to now, and help return stability to Syrians so they can choose their own destiny. The legal president is still Assad till Syrians say otherwise in the ballots.
The Syrian army and the Syrian police force should be allowed to resume the task of ensuring security in Syria with our help and unconditionally. The main objective here is to eradicate extremism and ISIS as a primary objective. Any utopic vision of western style democracy in the region should be the last thing on our minds. Let them sort it out with their dictator. It's not our place to tell them which way the sun rises or sets.
It's not taking the initiative last time on Syria that's allowed ISIL to propagate, so if we're obliged to do something now then surely by definition what happens in Syria is very much our business. It's NOT up to us in the West or up to some armed mercenaries who have no representation amongst the population either. CMD or Obama have no say in Assad's fate. All we can do is undo the damage we have already done, disarm the f
kers we have armed for years up to now, and help return stability to Syrians so they can choose their own destiny. The legal president is still Assad till Syrians say otherwise in the ballots.The Syrian army and the Syrian police force should be allowed to resume the task of ensuring security in Syria with our help and unconditionally. The main objective here is to eradicate extremism and ISIS as a primary objective. Any utopic vision of western style democracy in the region should be the last thing on our minds. Let them sort it out with their dictator. It's not our place to tell them which way the sun rises or sets.
Regardless of this, I'm with Hilary Benn: we have to stand with NATO. These are strange times though.
I just have a horrible feeling that this will be the trigger to bring more martyrs to the IS cause.
I hope I am wrong, but I feel now it is just a matter of time before a terrorist attack happens here.
If we cannot take out the terrorist threat here completely, then what chance do we have with jets dropping bombs at 10,000 feet in a lawless country, with people that hide in the shadows?
I hope I am wrong, but I feel now it is just a matter of time before a terrorist attack happens here.
If we cannot take out the terrorist threat here completely, then what chance do we have with jets dropping bombs at 10,000 feet in a lawless country, with people that hide in the shadows?
fatboy18 said:
Time to watch your back now 
People do remember we've been bombing them in Iraq, right?We'll just be able to talk to them in the end anyway-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/...
People suggest that there is nothing to talk to Isis about. But it is important to understand that talking to terrorists is not the same as agreeing with them. The British would never have discussed a united Ireland at the barrel of a gun against the wishes of the majority in Northern Ireland. But when we sat down with the IRA, its leaders wanted to talk about legitimate subjects like power-sharing and human rights. The same will be true of Isis. No one is going to talk to them about a universal caliphate, but we can talk about Sunni grievances and a way of ending violence.
Honestly.
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