America, shooting, again??
Discussion
scherzkeks said:
johnfm said:
Isn't it apparent that Americans are the problem, and not the guns?
Sadly, for many it is not. The simple answer is "ban guns," the complex answer is that American society is violent, overly materialistic, self-centered, and without any real cultural values (other than hustling) or spiritual center. In 100 years or so, that might change, but only after a giant cultural reset has occured.
scherzkeks said:
Sadly, for many it is not. The simple answer is "ban guns," the complex answer is that American society is violent, overly materialistic, self-centered, and without any real cultural values (other than hustling) or spiritual center.
In 100 years or so, that might change, but only after a giant cultural reset has occured.
I don't think those issues are unique to the American / US society. All societies portray those symptoms to a greater or lesser degree. It's just that the loony US citizens have easier access to guns and ergo cause more damage.In 100 years or so, that might change, but only after a giant cultural reset has occured.
johnfm said:
Isn't it apparent that Americans are the problem, and not the guns?
I don't necessarily think that Americans are more violent than others, but if you're going to have bad laws then guns *are* the problem. If you have bad laws, all other things being equal, allowing the sale of (semi) automatic large calibre rifles with 30 round mags and the like is going to be more dangerous than only allowing the sale of bolt action single shot no magazine .22 rimfire rifles. In the US I think the biggest problem is that there are a lot of brainwashed people out there who think they're somehow different and won't ever be the bad guy/negligent gun owner, and they drive the bad laws through undue influence.I remember reading (from memory in one of the Freakonomics books) that if you own a firearm for home defence you're 17x more likely to shoot a member of your family than an intruder. The USA is more dangerous than the UK, but in order for owning a pistol for home defense to actually make statistical sense and be safer than not owning one, you'd probably have to be living in Mogadishu or similar.
All that said, despite being British, I'm very liberal when it comes to firearm ownership (so long as correctly regulated as I'll explain) as I've spent a lot of time around them. What I hate here is that if you like firearms and enjoy shooting them for no other reason than they're dramatic, noisy, shiny, completely unnecessary and look quite cool (much like fun cars actually), everyone thinks you're a bit of a nut job. But I'd defy anyone to be put on a range with a firearm for the first time and not enjoy themselves.
My general feeling is that pretty much any firearm should be legal for the public to own and use, just that the licensing should be *very* onerous and storage/transport requirements should be very strict. In my head I have the military as a model of how to do it. I've turned up as part of a unit, gone to the armoury, drawn weapons/ammo, and proceeded to go to the range with enough hardware on us to invade a small country. We've done our shooting with qualified people in charge, then returned the weapons/unfired ammo to the armoury and gone for some beers afterwards then gone home. Lots of fun, nothing inherently dangerous and as far as I'm concerned there's no reason why a civvy with proper safety training couldn't do exactly the same thing in club format.
So using the model above, if a person wants to own say a GPMG because they enjoy shooting it, or even just because whatever, I've got no problem with it. So long as they are licensed, able to handle it safely, only use it under controlled conditions and it is stored such that if they go postal they can't shoot up a pub or their neighbour with it, I'm happy.
A more realistic example for me would be pistol shooting as a hobby as it could be quick, fun and convenient (or at least more so than rifle shooting which I also enjoy but is more of a faff). I'd really like, after being suitably licensed, to own say a Beretta 92 but have to keep it in an armoury in an approved club with an indoor range. When other people might go and play squash or go to the pub to wind down after work, I could nip over to the range to do a bit of shooting with some mates, then go home. Unfortunately, because of our kneejerk reaction here after Dunblane, that's not possible which is a shame.
Countdown said:
I don't think those issues are unique to the American / US society. All societies portray those symptoms to a greater or lesser degree. It's just that the loony US citizens have easier access to guns and ergo cause more damage.
Many societies display some of those traits to varying degrees, but America remains unique. I personally don't think you can understand it unless you grew up there. Even better would be if you had also managed to live abroad for a while. There is lots written on this matter. IMO, guns are not the primary issue, but they are certainly a vehicle for delivering on what many people already feel. Going Postal by Mark Ames is a good read. There was a fascinating interview with the guy who was attacked at Leytonstone Tube Station six months ago (the "You're no muslim, bruv" attack) on the World At One.
He chose to do an interview as a result of the Orlando massacre, to say that in Britain it is so incredibly rare to be attacked and if you are, because of the lack of guns you are highly unlikely to be killed. He said that the Jo Cox murder even reinforced that, given the firearm was either vintage or homemade.
Well worth a listen.
Arent a disproportionate number of gun Deaths young black males ?
That young, urban black male culture does seem to me, an outside to be materialistic, violent, drug focused and egotistical, specifically through rap music and a lot of file, is it art imitating life or vice versa ? some will be down to deprivation but it does seem to celebrate money, drugs, alcohol, violence and misogyny, is it seen by some as a way to live, to be the bad man ?
Dont take that as racist, it is just an observation, the figures certainly suggest it has some truth in it, young black guys in the UK also seem to be disproportionately represented in the murder statistics as well.
I spent ten years at GMP and it was an eye opener, I remember speaking to an older officer who was complaining about always being called racist, he said he most certainly wasn't, he just arrested those who did certain things, when he was involved in Cheque and Card fraud he said it was 90 percent Asian men, the vast majority of the car thieves he dealt with were White, Street Robbery was by and large Black, guys, Shoplifting apparently was very skewed towards white females called Angela, which seemed very specific. point is, every group has criminality, it just tends to vary, in this bit of leafy Cheshire there are many fraudsters and thinly veiled gangsters.
Different groups have different culture and values, perhaps more would need to be done to avoid young black guys getting into that world, I know a lot is done by dedicated people in the community, but at the government level, who knows ?
That young, urban black male culture does seem to me, an outside to be materialistic, violent, drug focused and egotistical, specifically through rap music and a lot of file, is it art imitating life or vice versa ? some will be down to deprivation but it does seem to celebrate money, drugs, alcohol, violence and misogyny, is it seen by some as a way to live, to be the bad man ?
Dont take that as racist, it is just an observation, the figures certainly suggest it has some truth in it, young black guys in the UK also seem to be disproportionately represented in the murder statistics as well.
I spent ten years at GMP and it was an eye opener, I remember speaking to an older officer who was complaining about always being called racist, he said he most certainly wasn't, he just arrested those who did certain things, when he was involved in Cheque and Card fraud he said it was 90 percent Asian men, the vast majority of the car thieves he dealt with were White, Street Robbery was by and large Black, guys, Shoplifting apparently was very skewed towards white females called Angela, which seemed very specific. point is, every group has criminality, it just tends to vary, in this bit of leafy Cheshire there are many fraudsters and thinly veiled gangsters.
Different groups have different culture and values, perhaps more would need to be done to avoid young black guys getting into that world, I know a lot is done by dedicated people in the community, but at the government level, who knows ?
J4CKO said:
Arent a disproportionate number of gun Deaths young black males ?
That young, urban black male culture does seem to me, an outside to be materialistic, violent, drug focused and egotistical, specifically through rap music and a lot of file, is it art imitating life or vice versa ? some will be down to deprivation but it does seem to celebrate money, drugs, alcohol, violence and misogyny, is it seen by some as a way to live, to be the bad man ?
Dont take that as racist, it is just an observation, the figures certainly suggest it has some truth in it, young black guys in the UK also seem to be disproportionately represented in the murder statistics as well.
I spent ten years at GMP and it was an eye opener, I remember speaking to an older officer who was complaining about always being called racist, he said he most certainly wasn't, he just arrested those who did certain things, when he was involved in Cheque and Card fraud he said it was 90 percent Asian men, the vast majority of the car thieves he dealt with were White, Street Robbery was by and large Black, guys, Shoplifting apparently was very skewed towards white females called Angela, which seemed very specific. point is, every group has criminality, it just tends to vary, in this bit of leafy Cheshire there are many fraudsters and thinly veiled gangsters.
Different groups have different culture and values, perhaps more would need to be done to avoid young black guys getting into that world, I know a lot is done by dedicated people in the community, but at the government level, who knows ?
What you stated is very accurate and true. You WILL be called a racist on here for saying so, as was I; however, it is a fact and facts should not be preempted by labels.That young, urban black male culture does seem to me, an outside to be materialistic, violent, drug focused and egotistical, specifically through rap music and a lot of file, is it art imitating life or vice versa ? some will be down to deprivation but it does seem to celebrate money, drugs, alcohol, violence and misogyny, is it seen by some as a way to live, to be the bad man ?
Dont take that as racist, it is just an observation, the figures certainly suggest it has some truth in it, young black guys in the UK also seem to be disproportionately represented in the murder statistics as well.
I spent ten years at GMP and it was an eye opener, I remember speaking to an older officer who was complaining about always being called racist, he said he most certainly wasn't, he just arrested those who did certain things, when he was involved in Cheque and Card fraud he said it was 90 percent Asian men, the vast majority of the car thieves he dealt with were White, Street Robbery was by and large Black, guys, Shoplifting apparently was very skewed towards white females called Angela, which seemed very specific. point is, every group has criminality, it just tends to vary, in this bit of leafy Cheshire there are many fraudsters and thinly veiled gangsters.
Different groups have different culture and values, perhaps more would need to be done to avoid young black guys getting into that world, I know a lot is done by dedicated people in the community, but at the government level, who knows ?
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Mario149 said:
Stuff about Firearms licensing
I completely agree with you.They are Mr and Mrs Average who have firearms that they feel offer some form of insurance should the unthinkable happen. That is to say that they treat their firearm as something they hope never to have to use. Moreover it is a last line of defense where no other option or opportunity exists.
I confess to being a CCW holding gun owner - originally from the UK (though not quite as opinionated as some others in this discussion). For me, it's about mitigating for the (highly unlikely, in my circumstances) scenario, where otherwise I would be begging to be spared. So, unlikely, though not impossible - but so are hurricanes and I have insurance for those too.
One concern, among many others, is that people who own guns that they are unfamiliar with are an even bigger liability to themselves and family members than they would otherwise be. Gun ownership is a huge responsibility.
If personal or home defense is the rationale for gun ownership, it doesn't really make sense to have your gun locked-up in a safe at the gun club.
The incidence of gun ownership in the part of the world where live is much higher than the US average - being the sociable chap I am, I know a lot of my neighbors quite well and more than 50% of those I'm familiar with have guns at home and or on their person. Additionally, they don't shoot each other - strange to some, I know, but those with a modicum of brain-power tend not to do stupid, irrational things.
I've stated this numerous times on this forum, as have others. Most American gun owners would welcome more stringent controls on the purchase and continued ownership of firearms. Most of us would quite happily register our guns with the authorities and support mental health evaluation - and (and this is the biggie) would not be troubled by a ban on semi-auto assault (type) long guns (which are highly inappropriate for home defense anyway).
Matt Harper said:
I've stated this numerous times on this forum, as have others. Most American gun owners would welcome more stringent controls on the purchase and continued ownership of firearms. Most of us would quite happily register our guns with the authorities and support mental health evaluation - and (and this is the biggie) would not be troubled by a ban on semi-auto assault (type) long guns (which are highly inappropriate for home defense anyway).
That seems a reasonable view to me, I can't see a use for an AR15 type weapon for any legitimate use, a weapon that size isn't good for protecting yourself unless you have a very open plan home and hunting with such a weapon would seem to suggest you aren't very good at shooting. Rifles for hunting and handguns for self defence but perhaps a test so you don't leave it in your handbag next to your toddler so you get shot by your child?greygoose said:
Matt Harper said:
I've stated this numerous times on this forum, as have others. Most American gun owners would welcome more stringent controls on the purchase and continued ownership of firearms. Most of us would quite happily register our guns with the authorities and support mental health evaluation - and (and this is the biggie) would not be troubled by a ban on semi-auto assault (type) long guns (which are highly inappropriate for home defense anyway).
That seems a reasonable view to me, I can't see a use for an AR15 type weapon for any legitimate use, a weapon that size isn't good for protecting yourself unless you have a very open plan home and hunting with such a weapon would seem to suggest you aren't very good at shooting. Rifles for hunting and handguns for self defence but perhaps a test so you don't leave it in your handbag next to your toddler so you get shot by your child?jdw100 said:
I wondered how long it would take for someone to post that.Car dealer offering a free AR15 rifle or handgun with every car purchase. Simply ridiculous.
I have no doubt many people will accept his offer. Who wouldn't want a free gun? I was reading the comments on the Orlando shooting and it seemed that many currently unarmed Americans were planning on going out to buy a gun following the shooting.
I fear the US is slowly but surely regressing back to the Wild West era were literally everyone will carry a gun with them at all times, and shootings will become more common.
Arguments will be settled by shooting, road rage incidents will end in shooting, a simple fight in a bar will end in a shooting, neighbour disputes will become a shooting, debts will be settled by shooting.
I really hope it doesn't go that way, but I can't help think that more and more guns in circulation will simply end in more shots being fired.
johnfm said:
Isn't it apparent that Americans are the problem, and not the guns?
Sure, their gun laws are irresponsible.
But since there are other countries where the citizens have rights to arms (but don't have eye watering shooting stats) the only conclusion to draw is that Americans have ingrained homocidal tendencies and guns happen to expedite their craving to kill.
If guns were banned they'd find other ways to kill people for running a red light, or performing abortions, or eating the last French fry.
It is a personal tragedy for the victims and their families and a sad indictment on America - but I'm not convinced that there is such a simple solution as restricting gun ownership. In any event, Americans will never ever reduce the ease with which they can buy automatic assault weapons.
There was something on tv years ago comparing death rates between US and UK firemen. Something to do with the American need to be a hero or something like that. Where as the UK guys had a a better grasp on reality.Sure, their gun laws are irresponsible.
But since there are other countries where the citizens have rights to arms (but don't have eye watering shooting stats) the only conclusion to draw is that Americans have ingrained homocidal tendencies and guns happen to expedite their craving to kill.
If guns were banned they'd find other ways to kill people for running a red light, or performing abortions, or eating the last French fry.
It is a personal tragedy for the victims and their families and a sad indictment on America - but I'm not convinced that there is such a simple solution as restricting gun ownership. In any event, Americans will never ever reduce the ease with which they can buy automatic assault weapons.
Could be the same with gun ownership and their need to be seen as a hero.
unrepentant said:
I don't know of any politician who has suggested that guns be banned. The gun lobby and the NRA oppose any changes and GOP lawmakers have blocked previous attempts to reinstate the ban on assault weapons. Matt's views are those of the majority of American's. They are ignored by the GOP, many of whose members are in the pockets of the NRA.
The NRA are t
ts. I recall the segment John Oliver did on them and ivory handled pistols.unrepentant said:
There are to be 4 votes in the senate on Monday on some gun control moves, principally removing the right to buy guns from those on the terror watch list. They are all expected to fail....
If the NRA don't want people on the terrorist watchlist to be prevented from buying guns then how do they feel about regular common-or-garden felons? Why not just issue everyone on the terrorist watchlist with a firearm? Why not give everyone leaving prison a semi-automatic handgun? Why not just hand out free guns with every Happy Meal sold?These people are nuts.
Mario149 said:
Matt, how do you square the fact that you own a gun for home defence but are actually far more likely to hurt yourself or your family with it rather than a potential "bad guy"?
Statistically - maybe I am. Practically, not so much. I have been lucky enough to receive a lot of training. My daughter is a tactical firearms specialist in the Sheriffs Dept where we live. She and some of her colleagues have taught my wife and myself to be proficient, - and safe. An added bonus for me is that I have access to the agency's facilities, so am able to shoot on their range, pretty much whenever I want to. I take advantage of that opportunity at least once per month.
I am not a marksman, or one of those weirdos who go out into the woods, head to toe in cammo to video myself playing quick-draw-mcgraw.
That said, I absolutely know my way around the firearms I own - how they work, what their limitations are and how and when their use would be appropriate and when it would not.
I do concealed carry most of the time.
I think I'd like to make one other comment, if you please. While I do not agree with a lot of the opinions and aggressive tone of poster 5ohmustang, some comments related to his service to this nation (that adopted him, not the other way around) are quite disgraceful and highly objectionable.
Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.
People don't openly thank servicemen for their service in the UK because it's a frankly bizarre thing to do. Unless you've been drafted you've volunteered and been paid to serve. I have friends and had family members who've served and I would never thank them for it, they'd look at me like I was being a patronising tit if I did. They didn't join to be thanked especially not by strangers. I respect them for their service and in one case huge sacrifice getting blown to pieces in Afghanistan and hastily reassembled in Birmingham but thanking them personally doesn't sit right. My friends would rather I showed respect by wearing my poppy with pride and supporting forces charities.
Edit: but I agree wholeheartedly someone's service should never be derided.
Edit: but I agree wholeheartedly someone's service should never be derided.
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