America, shooting, again??
Discussion
There's a PH 'er I know who worked in bomb disposal (if you know him, please don't say). NI if I recall. He has my deepest respect for having the courage to walk up to something that could so easily have ended his life so many times.
For him I have a deep respect. But the idea of going up to him and shaking his hand and thanking him seems quite ridiculous. For a start I think he'd be embarrassed and secondly I think, like a lot of British soldiers they carry their soldier identity as an internal pride and not something they 'show off'.
Maybe that's the difference between UK and US. Help for heroes demonstrates what the uk really thinks of its soldiers and their sacrifices. I think that, more than a shake of a hand or a free scoff, shows what this nation's true attitude towards its soldiers.
I for one am very glad we don't do 'hero worship', for most of the time it's ridiculous.
For him I have a deep respect. But the idea of going up to him and shaking his hand and thanking him seems quite ridiculous. For a start I think he'd be embarrassed and secondly I think, like a lot of British soldiers they carry their soldier identity as an internal pride and not something they 'show off'.
Maybe that's the difference between UK and US. Help for heroes demonstrates what the uk really thinks of its soldiers and their sacrifices. I think that, more than a shake of a hand or a free scoff, shows what this nation's true attitude towards its soldiers.
I for one am very glad we don't do 'hero worship', for most of the time it's ridiculous.
Matt Harper said:
Mario149 said:
Matt, how do you square the fact that you own a gun for home defence but are actually far more likely to hurt yourself or your family with it rather than a potential "bad guy"?
Statistically - maybe I am. Practically, not so much. I have been lucky enough to receive a lot of training. My daughter is a tactical firearms specialist in the Sheriffs Dept where we live. She and some of her colleagues have taught my wife and myself to be proficient, - and safe. An added bonus for me is that I have access to the agency's facilities, so am able to shoot on their range, pretty much whenever I want to. I take advantage of that opportunity at least once per month.
I am not a marksman, or one of those weirdos who go out into the woods, head to toe in cammo to video myself playing quick-draw-mcgraw.
That said, I absolutely know my way around the firearms I own - how they work, what their limitations are and how and when their use would be appropriate and when it would not.
I do concealed carry most of the time.
I think I'd like to make one other comment, if you please. While I do not agree with a lot of the opinions and aggressive tone of poster 5ohmustang, some comments related to his service to this nation (that adopted him, not the other way around) are quite disgraceful and highly objectionable.
Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.
drivin_me_nuts said:
There's a PH 'er I know who worked in bomb disposal (if you know him, please don't say). NI if I recall. He has my deepest respect for having the courage to walk up to something that could so easily have ended his life so many times.
For him I have a deep respect. But the idea of going up to him and shaking his hand and thanking him seems quite ridiculous. For a start I think he'd be embarrassed and secondly I think, like a lot of British soldiers they carry their soldier identity as an internal pride and not something they 'show off'.
Maybe that's the difference between UK and US. Help for heroes demonstrates what the uk really thinks of its soldiers and their sacrifices. I think that, more than a shake of a hand or a free scoff, shows what this nation's true attitude towards its soldiers.
I for one am very glad we don't do 'hero worship', for most of the time it's ridiculous.
I was at Sea World once. An alarm went off on one of the rides prompting the fire service to attend. They did, seemingly as a matter of routine, as there was nothing for them to do. The ride operator stuck them all on the ride and they went around. Once they got off, they were receiving a round of applause. It was a little surprising as I expected some moron to film them and put it on social media complaining. For him I have a deep respect. But the idea of going up to him and shaking his hand and thanking him seems quite ridiculous. For a start I think he'd be embarrassed and secondly I think, like a lot of British soldiers they carry their soldier identity as an internal pride and not something they 'show off'.
Maybe that's the difference between UK and US. Help for heroes demonstrates what the uk really thinks of its soldiers and their sacrifices. I think that, more than a shake of a hand or a free scoff, shows what this nation's true attitude towards its soldiers.
I for one am very glad we don't do 'hero worship', for most of the time it's ridiculous.
The overt nature can be a little too much, but one thing to admire about America is the respect they have for those who dedicate their lives to protect and help the public.
NinjaPower said:
I wondered how long it would take for someone to post that.
Car dealer offering a free AR15 rifle or handgun with every car purchase. Simply ridiculous.
I have no doubt many people will accept his offer. Who wouldn't want a free gun? I was reading the comments on the Orlando shooting and it seemed that many currently unarmed Americans were planning on going out to buy a gun following the shooting.
I fear the US is slowly but surely regressing back to the Wild West era were literally everyone will carry a gun with them at all times, and shootings will become more common.
Arguments will be settled by shooting, road rage incidents will end in shooting, a simple fight in a bar will end in a shooting, neighbour disputes will become a shooting, debts will be settled by shooting.
I really hope it doesn't go that way, but I can't help think that more and more guns in circulation will simply end in more shots being fired.
That's how it is now?Car dealer offering a free AR15 rifle or handgun with every car purchase. Simply ridiculous.
I have no doubt many people will accept his offer. Who wouldn't want a free gun? I was reading the comments on the Orlando shooting and it seemed that many currently unarmed Americans were planning on going out to buy a gun following the shooting.
I fear the US is slowly but surely regressing back to the Wild West era were literally everyone will carry a gun with them at all times, and shootings will become more common.
Arguments will be settled by shooting, road rage incidents will end in shooting, a simple fight in a bar will end in a shooting, neighbour disputes will become a shooting, debts will be settled by shooting.
I really hope it doesn't go that way, but I can't help think that more and more guns in circulation will simply end in more shots being fired.
Matt Harper said:
Mario149 said:
Matt, how do you square the fact that you own a gun for home defence but are actually far more likely to hurt yourself or your family with it rather than a potential "bad guy"?
I think I'd like to make one other comment, if you please. While I do not agree with a lot of the opinions and aggressive tone of poster 5ohmustang, some comments related to his service to this nation (that adopted him, not the other way around) are quite disgraceful and highly objectionable. Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.
La Liga said:
was at Sea World once. An alarm went off on one of the rides prompting the fire service to attend. They did, seemingly as a matter of routine, as there was nothing for them to do. The ride operator stuck them all on the ride and they went around. Once they got off, they were receiving a round of applause. It was a little surprising as I expected some moron to film them and put it on social media complaining.
The overt nature can be a little too much, but one thing to admire about America is the respect they have for those who dedicate their lives to protect and help the public.
I agree it's a healthy to respect but to us it's a bit over the top. Yanks clap in cinemas though, that's a weird experience too! Maybe we're just a bit cold this side of the pond huh!?The overt nature can be a little too much, but one thing to admire about America is the respect they have for those who dedicate their lives to protect and help the public.
I show my respect in other ways. At my old house some idiot binned his car outside so I offered the coppers who were dealing with the incident tea and biscuits (how very British) they appreciated it. It's showing respect without thanking someone for doing something they are paid quite well to do. Now if a firefighter ran into my house and rescued me from a blaze that man would be worshipped as a hero by me and I would certainly thank him, I'm not going to thank him for turning up at my work because of a false alarm and getting a cup of tea and cake to go, that's sycophancy. Respect always, show gratitude where appropriate.
djc206 said:
People don't openly thank servicemen for their service in the UK because it's a frankly bizarre thing to do
Indeed.I think pretty much all the people I know who entered the military, did so because they liked the career, the job, and the pay. I don't think it was much do do with wanting to 'serve your country' or anything like that.
A friend's 19 year old son is just about to sign up to join the RAF, and having spoken to him about it, his decision is nothing to do with any kind of national pride or service, but simply he wants to progress his training and career as an engineer, and the RAF is a very attractive option for him. He actively hopes that whilst in, he gets plenty of qualifications, decent pay, and more importantly, never has to see any 'action' as such.
One of my friends was in the Navy for 15 years until he was 35, and always says how pleased he was with never seeing any real war situations, whilst having a cushy career which generally involved travelling the world and 'pinching as much stuff from work as was humanly possible'.
Which pretty much sums up military service for most people in the UK. It's a 'job' you chose to do, just like most other people choose a 'job'.
I would not, however, deride anyone for their choice of career, including military.
Matt Harper said:
<snip>While I do not agree with a lot of the opinions and aggressive tone of poster 5ohmustang, some comments related to his service to this nation (that adopted him, not the other way around) are quite disgraceful and highly objectionable.
Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.<snip>
Matt, I would say that we respect our military as much as the US does. I think it's just the open and effervescent praise (as exemplified by 5oh)that some in the UK find a little cringeworthy. Maybe it's just a cultural thing...Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.<snip>
Mario149 said:
Matt, respectfully, your expanantion is the problem with America and firearms. Everyone thinks they're different and special and it won't happen to then. I've done FIBUA training with the military, been handling firearms since I was 13, I've not even done a lot of pistol shooting but I can put 5 rounds in 5s into a target the size of a £10 note from 10m away. I can actually fall alseep to gunfire it bothers me so little, but I wouldn't ever consider having a firearm in the house (even if I could!) for home defence.
Mario, respectfully, you are making yourself sound a bit like a self-important braggart. You are not the first on here to suggest, "We British Rambos are far more expert, experienced and proficient than you American Rambos". I really do not feel that you are qualified to assess my ability or motivation, or circumstances. Your statement suggests that I should not have a firearm in my house, simply because you could not, or would not in yours.
Countdown said:
Matt Harper said:
<snip>While I do not agree with a lot of the opinions and aggressive tone of poster 5ohmustang, some comments related to his service to this nation (that adopted him, not the other way around) are quite disgraceful and highly objectionable.
Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.<snip>
Matt, I would say that we respect our military as much as the US does. I think it's just the open and effervescent praise (as exemplified by 5oh)that some in the UK find a little cringeworthy. Maybe it's just a cultural thing...Veterans should be respected and appreciated - regardless of their country origins. That may not be the case in the UK anymore - but it certainly used to be. Thank you for your service, 50hmustang - it's appreciated by me.<snip>
Almost exactly a year ago, I met a bunch of British guys who were camped next to us at Le Mans. Two of them were ex-RN and another was serving (Royal Engineers Corps, I think). Without making a big deal of it, I let each of them know that I appreciated their service to their nation. All of them told me how much that meant to them - I don't think any of them were embarrassed or self-conscious.
Maybe American society is just a bit more 'old-fashioned'. I live in a community where youngsters call me 'sir' and hold doors open for my wife. The cops who cruise our neighborhood wave hello and we wave back. I wouldn't dream of passing someone on the street and not saying 'Hi'. People stop to chat about cars at the gas station - I've lost count of the number of compliments paid by total strangers about my car. It wasn't like that in England and it's a politeness and courtesy that I enjoy being a part of.
I appreciate that it's not like this everywhere I travel in the US - but it is not uncommon either.
Tony Starks said:
There was something on tv years ago comparing death rates between US and UK firemen. Something to do with the American need to be a hero or something like that. Where as the UK guys had a a better grasp on reality.
Could be the same with gun ownership and their need to be seen as a hero.
Funnily enough deaths from fires in the USA is about three times higher than UK, adjusting to population. Don't know why...wooden houses, fire brigade has further to travel..?Could be the same with gun ownership and their need to be seen as a hero.
If you look at deaths of firemen themselves (including road accidents and things like heart attacks at work) the UK typically has one or two a year, with some years in the last decade being zero.
You would expect, therefore, the USA to be around 10 per year. It's actually typically up in the 80s to just over 100.
Training, equipment? Attitude or approach?
I know with some big fires now (eg major factory fires) our tactic is to control the area but let it burn out rather than risk lives, unless lives inside are at risk.
NinjaPower said:
djc206 said:
People don't openly thank servicemen for their service in the UK because it's a frankly bizarre thing to do
Indeed.I think pretty much all the people I know who entered the military, did so because they liked the career, the job, and the pay. I don't think it was much do do with wanting to 'serve your country' or anything like that.
A friend's 19 year old son is just about to sign up to join the RAF, and having spoken to him about it, his decision is nothing to do with any kind of national pride or service, but simply he wants to progress his training and career as an engineer, and the RAF is a very attractive option for him. He actively hopes that whilst in, he gets plenty of qualifications, decent pay, and more importantly, never has to see any 'action' as such.
One of my friends was in the Navy for 15 years until he was 35, and always says how pleased he was with never seeing any real war situations, whilst having a cushy career which generally involved travelling the world and 'pinching as much stuff from work as was humanly possible'.
Which pretty much sums up military service for most people in the UK. It's a 'job' you chose to do, just like most other people choose a 'job'.
I would not, however, deride anyone for their choice of career, including military.
What I do find hard to understand with the American attitude is the lack of nuance - it's all black and white.
You have put on a uniform - you're a hero.
This guys fighting us are 'bad guys''.
That man that shot people must have been mentally ill - but that could never happen to me.
Or his wife was having an affair so he shot her - but that could never happen to me
Those people left a gun lying around - but that could never ever happen to us in our home.
Their child found that gun concealed in the bedroom but that couldn't happen here as we have told our children not to go in our bedroom.
Etc etc,
If someone came up and said to you - I'm such a great driver, I've done loads of extra training and that means I'll never have an accident....you'd think hmmmm mate that's not how life works is it?
Pilots are well trained but mistakes are made and planes crash, I worked in areas with stringent regulations and very tight controls and still seen mistakes happen...with radioactive materials.
Guns and kids, in the house at the same time, are not a good mix. The stats show that... But yours will never poke around in a cupboard or bedroom drawer will they? But I've trained them in gun safety from an early age! So you never did anything daft as a kid then? My dad was very clear about keeping out of his shed but it didn't stop us nicking flammable liquids to set fires down the river! (Sorry Dad!!) The shed was locked as well.....kids can be very clever about laying their hands on forbidden items.
.
jdw100 said:
Very much all of the above.
What I do find hard to understand with the American attitude is the lack of nuance - it's all black and white.
You have put on a uniform - you're a hero.
This guys fighting us are 'bad guys''.
That man that shot people must have been mentally ill - but that could never happen to me.
Or his wife was having an affair so he shot her - but that could never happen to me
Those people left a gun lying around - but that could never ever happen to us in our home.
Their child found that gun concealed in the bedroom but that couldn't happen here as we have told our children not to go in our bedroom.
Etc etc,
If someone came up and said to you - I'm such a great driver, I've done loads of extra training and that means I'll never have an accident....you'd think hmmmm mate that's not how life works is it?
Pilots are well trained but mistakes are made and planes crash, I worked in areas with stringent regulations and very tight controls and still seen mistakes happen...with radioactive materials.
Guns and kids, in the house at the same time, are not a good mix. The stats show that... But yours will never poke around in a cupboard or bedroom drawer will they? But I've trained them in gun safety from an early age! So you never did anything daft as a kid then? My dad was very clear about keeping out of his shed but it didn't stop us nicking flammable liquids to set fires down the river! (Sorry Dad!!) The shed was locked as well.....kids can be very clever about laying their hands on forbidden items.
.
I'm not sure if this is aimed at anyone specific (or their comments on here) or is just a generalization - but generalization seems to be pretty much what it is.What I do find hard to understand with the American attitude is the lack of nuance - it's all black and white.
You have put on a uniform - you're a hero.
This guys fighting us are 'bad guys''.
That man that shot people must have been mentally ill - but that could never happen to me.
Or his wife was having an affair so he shot her - but that could never happen to me
Those people left a gun lying around - but that could never ever happen to us in our home.
Their child found that gun concealed in the bedroom but that couldn't happen here as we have told our children not to go in our bedroom.
Etc etc,
If someone came up and said to you - I'm such a great driver, I've done loads of extra training and that means I'll never have an accident....you'd think hmmmm mate that's not how life works is it?
Pilots are well trained but mistakes are made and planes crash, I worked in areas with stringent regulations and very tight controls and still seen mistakes happen...with radioactive materials.
Guns and kids, in the house at the same time, are not a good mix. The stats show that... But yours will never poke around in a cupboard or bedroom drawer will they? But I've trained them in gun safety from an early age! So you never did anything daft as a kid then? My dad was very clear about keeping out of his shed but it didn't stop us nicking flammable liquids to set fires down the river! (Sorry Dad!!) The shed was locked as well.....kids can be very clever about laying their hands on forbidden items.
.
Lack of nuance is a societal thing, is it? An entire nation of 300 million +, all lacking nuance. Isn't that like saying all British men have pattern baldness, are covered in tattoos, have rotten teeth and are all a bit fighty, when they've had more than two glasses of Stella.
Matt Harper said:
I'm not sure if this is aimed at anyone specific (or their comments on here) or is just a generalization - but generalization seems to be pretty much what it is.
Lack of nuance is a societal thing, is it? An entire nation of 300 million +, all lacking nuance. Isn't that like saying all British men have pattern baldness, are covered in tattoos, have rotten teeth and are all a bit fighty, when they've had more than two glasses of Stella.
And are currently all in France throwing garden furniture at the police. Nope that's pretty much bang on the money!Lack of nuance is a societal thing, is it? An entire nation of 300 million +, all lacking nuance. Isn't that like saying all British men have pattern baldness, are covered in tattoos, have rotten teeth and are all a bit fighty, when they've had more than two glasses of Stella.
Matt Harper said:
Mario149 said:
Matt, respectfully, your expanantion is the problem with America and firearms. Everyone thinks they're different and special and it won't happen to then. I've done FIBUA training with the military, been handling firearms since I was 13, I've not even done a lot of pistol shooting but I can put 5 rounds in 5s into a target the size of a £10 note from 10m away. I can actually fall alseep to gunfire it bothers me so little, but I wouldn't ever consider having a firearm in the house (even if I could!) for home defence.
Mario, respectfully, you are making yourself sound a bit like a self-important braggart. You are not the first on here to suggest, "We British Rambos are far more expert, experienced and proficient than you American Rambos". I really do not feel that you are qualified to assess my ability or motivation, or circumstances. Your statement suggests that I should not have a firearm in my house, simply because you could not, or would not in yours.
And I'd happily have a firearm in the house, but it wouldn't be for home defence and I'd have it in a safe where it couldn't easily be accessed because the reality is my daughter would be more likely to get hold of it and accidentally shoot herself/one of us or vice versa, than me shooting a legitimate life threatening intruder.
rohrl said:
unrepentant said:
There are to be 4 votes in the senate on Monday on some gun control moves, principally removing the right to buy guns from those on the terror watch list. They are all expected to fail....
If the NRA don't want people on the terrorist watch list to be prevented from buying guns then how do they feel about regular common-or-garden felons? Why not just issue everyone on the terrorist watchlist with a firearm? Why not give everyone leaving prison a semi-automatic handgun? Why not just hand out free guns with every Happy Meal sold?These people are nuts.
Oakey said:
NinjaPower said:
I wondered how long it would take for someone to post that.
Car dealer offering a free AR15 rifle or handgun with every car purchase. Simply ridiculous.
I have no doubt many people will accept his offer. Who wouldn't want a free gun? I was reading the comments on the Orlando shooting and it seemed that many currently unarmed Americans were planning on going out to buy a gun following the shooting.
I fear the US is slowly but surely regressing back to the Wild West era were literally everyone will carry a gun with them at all times, and shootings will become more common.
Arguments will be settled by shooting, road rage incidents will end in shooting, a simple fight in a bar will end in a shooting, neighbour disputes will become a shooting, debts will be settled by shooting.
I really hope it doesn't go that way, but I can't help think that more and more guns in circulation will simply end in more shots being fired.
That's how it is now?Car dealer offering a free AR15 rifle or handgun with every car purchase. Simply ridiculous.
I have no doubt many people will accept his offer. Who wouldn't want a free gun? I was reading the comments on the Orlando shooting and it seemed that many currently unarmed Americans were planning on going out to buy a gun following the shooting.
I fear the US is slowly but surely regressing back to the Wild West era were literally everyone will carry a gun with them at all times, and shootings will become more common.
Arguments will be settled by shooting, road rage incidents will end in shooting, a simple fight in a bar will end in a shooting, neighbour disputes will become a shooting, debts will be settled by shooting.
I really hope it doesn't go that way, but I can't help think that more and more guns in circulation will simply end in more shots being fired.
NinjaPower said:
djc206 said:
People don't openly thank servicemen for their service in the UK because it's a frankly bizarre thing to do
Indeed.I think pretty much all the people I know who entered the military, did so because they liked the career, the job, and the pay. I don't think it was much do do with wanting to 'serve your country' or anything like that.
A friend's 19 year old son is just about to sign up to join the RAF, and having spoken to him about it, his decision is nothing to do with any kind of national pride or service, but simply he wants to progress his training and career as an engineer, and the RAF is a very attractive option for him. He actively hopes that whilst in, he gets plenty of qualifications, decent pay, and more importantly, never has to see any 'action' as such.
One of my friends was in the Navy for 15 years until he was 35, and always says how pleased he was with never seeing any real war situations, whilst having a cushy career which generally involved travelling the world and 'pinching as much stuff from work as was humanly possible'.
Which pretty much sums up military service for most people in the UK. It's a 'job' you chose to do, just like most other people choose a 'job'.
I would not, however, deride anyone for their choice of career, including military.
ETA: I hope that Countdown is correct and that pride in your military (which is a very good one BTW) is simply displayed differently due to simple cultural differences.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Monday 20th June 15:59
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