America, shooting, again??

[Erudite geezer]

La Liga said:

...shows there to be over 1000 in 1000 days (4 or more people shot head) http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/...

fking savages.

[AJL308]

ReallyReallyGood said:

But doesn't their current gun culture stem from the nature of their gun laws since the founding of the United States? If laws have caused this current situation, laws can change it too.

It may not change overnight - as you say it's a cultural chagne that's needed - but change the laws on guns and I would bet that after 10-20 years these mass shootings would be a rarer thing.

I don't think that gun laws influence the culture as much as people think. Indeed the laws used to be much looser (pre 1968) and there wasn't a culture of carrying out mass-shootings on an almost daily basis until quite recently. Lots of places have gun ownership rates and laws similar to the US but they don't have a culture of mass gun violence.

Changing gun laws won't work because there are too many guns already in circulation to make much difference. Very few are registered so you can't take them from people.

The fact is that US culture is basically fked up. Americans treat each other like st. In almost every case, especially in school shootings, the shooter has been an ostracised, loner who had suffered years of being treated like crap by others. Mental illness is usually there as well - probably aggravated by the treatment they received by others. When you add religious fundamentalism to the mix (like the people who shoot-up abortion clinics) things look even worse.

It's never the captain of the football team who shoots the school to bits, it's always one of the shy nerds with few or no friends who've spent their lives being treated like crap.

What's the betting that it turns out that this guy has been having a st time at the hands of his colleagues or some similar story? Either that or he's a religious nutter.

[anonymous-user]

GavinPearson said:

Chicago, Obama's home town, has some of the strictest gun control laws in the USA and also the worst shooting rates.

France has pretty good gun control and just suffered a horrific massacre.

Currently the newspaper reports for the Los Angeles shootings indicate that this was US domestic terrorism.Whether there were laws controlling guns or not, the difference it would have made in this case is absolutely zero.

The US pro-gun lobby advocates that everyone be armed in order to prevent massacres such as this but it was the Police that found the gunmen and dealt with them, in exactly the same way that the Police in Paris dealt with their (much bigger) recent issue.

Both examples suffer from people travelling across borders. Both examples also suffer from people acquiring guns which are lawfully held by others.

dudleybloke said:

johnxjsc1985 said:

have any of these disaster ever been stopped because they came across someone who shot back?.
I am glad we have strict gun control and I think we need to have even tougher sentences for anyone found with an illegal firearm

Terrorists don't win in Texas.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/03/us/mohammed-draw...

It's not a particularity valid example, since it's somewhat easier when you 'know' the target area and can prepare for it.

[Digga]

Beati Dogu said:

Our coach was searched for fruit and veg while crossing into California. I kid you not.

Did he mind? How thorough was the search?

[dudleybloke]

Digga said:

Beati Dogu said:

Our coach was searched for fruit and veg while crossing into California. I kid you not.

Did he mind? How thorough was the search?

Cucumber smuggling?

[Digga]

dudleybloke said:

Digga said:

Beati Dogu said:

Our coach was searched for fruit and veg while crossing into California. I kid you not.

Did he mind? How thorough was the search?

Cucumber smuggling?

A marrowing experience.

[Timmy40]

La Liga said:

ReallyReallyGood said:

Jimboka said:

La Liga said:

Moonhawk said:

Jimboka said:

USA population is 5x here
I feel very comfortable when visiting
5x population = 5x headlines

5x the population - but 71x the firearm related death rate (3.55 vs 0.05 per 100,000).

Indeed. The 5x doesn't really work since we don't have 1/5th of such headlines.

We'll disagree on that one.

I can't recall a single mass shooting event in the UK this year.

We've had two since 1996; Dunblane and Cumbria. Both which obviously generated headlines.

That means the Americans would only be allowed 10 headlines of this nature in order for the 5x to work. In 19 years. The data isn't clear in the US, and it depends how we define 'mass-shooting', but this source the Guardian is quoting shows there to be over 1000 in 1000 days (4 or more people shot head) http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/...

Other sources with a higher threshold of death claim over 200 since 2006. Either way, a little more than the 10 we'd be allowed in 19 years for the x5 theory to work.

Well I heard on radio 4 a few months back that the number of firearms related deaths in the US since 2001 is @400,000. 400,000!!!! That's more than a major war.

The figure stuck as they presented it in a "guess the number" type format.

Obviously the vast majority of those aren't the mass shooting which get the headlines just things like neighbours shooting each other over rubbish bins, gangs shooting each other over drugs, kids shooting each other playing with their parents guns, people just shooting someone cause they're a bid bored/mad.

Either way I think it's fairly safe to say the US has a bit of a problem. ISIL probably aren't significant in the US as they realise they'd be heaviy outnumbered and outgunned by the local heavily armed ( often religiously fanatical ) psychos.

Edited by Timmy40 on Thursday 3rd December 15:27

[anonymous-user]

Yay Freedom! Are there any plans to launch Air Strikes against that nest of Terror, the NRA headquarters?

[Robertj21a]

AJL308 said:

I don't think that gun laws influence the culture as much as people think. Indeed the laws used to be much looser (pre 1968) and there wasn't a culture of carrying out mass-shootings on an almost daily basis until quite recently. Lots of places have gun ownership rates and laws similar to the US but they don't have a culture of mass gun violence.

Changing gun laws won't work because there are too many guns already in circulation to make much difference. Very few are registered so you can't take them from people.

The fact is that US culture is basically fked up. Americans treat each other like st. In almost every case, especially in school shootings, the shooter has been an ostracised, loner who had suffered years of being treated like crap by others. Mental illness is usually there as well - probably aggravated by the treatment they received by others. When you add religious fundamentalism to the mix (like the people who shoot-up abortion clinics) things look even worse.

It's never the captain of the football team who shoots the school to bits, it's always one of the shy nerds with few or no friends who've spent their lives being treated like crap.

What's the betting that it turns out that this guy has been having a st time at the hands of his colleagues or some similar story? Either that or he's a religious nutter.

Agree with this. It tends to confirm that there's very little that can realistically be done now it's all gone so far. Any attempt at control will be a drop in the ocean and not affect those most likely to carry out such attacks.

[anonymous-user]

November 2015, with links:-


A woman complained about the pornographic movie playing in my SUV in the drive-thru line at McDonalds, so I shot the 13-year-old kid in the back seat of her car. (FL, 11/03)
http://www.wesh.com/…/victims-family-believe...

My lady friend and I decided to add some role playing to our "freaky sex" so I put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger. I had removed the magazine but forgot about the bullet in the chamber. She's dead now. (FL, 11/7)
http://www.wtsp.com/…/man-arrested-accidenta...

My fellow patriot and I had different views about how exactly to overthrow the tyrannical government of the United States, so I shot and killed him. (IA, 11/10)
http://www.carrollspaper.com/…/Militiamen-s-...

The mother of my child didn’t want to reimburse me for diapers and baby wipes, so I shot and killed her. (PA, 11/12)
http://6abc.com/…/cops-mother-of-8-killed-by...

The mother of my twin daughters left me and moved in with her dad, so I went over and shot all of them. I made my ex hold our babies in her lap while I killed them. (PA, 11/13)
http://www.people.com/…/florida-man-kills-se...

My son was arguing with me about biscuits and gravy, so I shot him dead. (IN, 11/14)
http://fox59.com/…/indianapolis-police-arres...

My friend was arguing with me about the Steelers game, so I shot him. (PA, 11/15)
http://www.wtae.com/…/man-arrested-after-sho...

My ex-boyfriend invited some people over to his house to talk about the man who was recently murdered across the street. At this gathering I got into an argument with my ex, so I pulled out my gun and shot him. (TX, 11/17)
http://www.khou.com/…/hpd-searching-woman-af...

I got fired from my job at a glass repair shop for leaving my gun and bulletproof vest in a company vehicle. I was mad about it so I blew off some steam by committing 42 drive-by shootings in one night. (OK, 11/18)
http://www.dailykos.com/…/-Oklahoma-man-arre...

I was playing poker with my buddy from work and we got into an argument so I shot him in the neck. He died. (OK, 11/21)
http://www.kxii.com/…/Sulphur-Police-allege-...

My son and a friend took me to a casino to celebrate my birthday. I got drunk and shot both of them in the car afterward. (LA, 11/21)
http://www.people.com/…/louisiana-woman-pret...

I tried to kill an opossum under my mobile home but missed and the ricochet hit min the leg. The possum got away. (FL, 11/23)
http://www.news-journalonline.com/…/…/...

My mom left her gun under her seat in the car when we went shopping on Thanksgiving. I picked it up and unintentionally shot her in the back. (IN, Thanksgiving Day)
http://www.courierpress.com/…/police-no-char...

I took my friend to the gun range to show him how much fun shooting can be. When I was demonstrating how to clean the gun, I accidentally shot him. (PA, Thanksgiving Day)
http://lancasteronline.com/…/article_0c143a7...

I was upset about ISIS and my cab driver was Muslim so I shot him in the back. (PA, Thanksgiving Day)
http://www.post-gazette.com/…/Muslim-t&#8230...

My waitress asked me not to smoke in the restaurant, so I shot her dead. (MS, 11/27)
http://www.rawstory.com/…/mississippi-man-gu...

My neighbor parked in front of my house. I went out and yelled at him, but he said he didn't want to move it, so I shot him in the head. (TX, 11/29)
http://www.foxsanantonio.com/…/police-neighb...

I saw a preteen stealing change from the coin tray in my unlocked car, so I shot him dead without warning. (MO, 11/29)

http://fox2now.com/2015/11/30/14-year-old-feels-re...

[AJL308]

Blue62 said:

The right to bear arms and unchecked access to firearms is part of US culture whether you like it or not.

The only way you can begin to tackle these tragedies is to reduce availability and eventually the number in circulation would begin to decline. You've got to start somewhere. If your average law-abiding Joe who has stockpiled automatic weapons knows that he is going to be regarded as a criminal for owning them in the near future, there's an incentive to get rid right there.

Of course psychos are not interested in complying with gun laws - the point is that if you can just go into a store and buy an assault rifle over the counter, no questions asked, it's hardly a surprise when a nutcase takes advantage of this and uses it to mow down a crowd of people. I'd suggest whether these weapons are legal or not, if an AK-47-toting maniac comes at you with one you're pretty much a sitting duck anyway.

Ban on the sale of automatic weapons? Gun amnesty? Background checks? Firearms licences? Surely it's time to introduce such measures.

The above is almost totally untrue. It's lies and disinformation perpetrated by people who have a vested interest in saying it (the lazy media) and accepted by people who have no inclination to check the facts.

There is no "unchecked access to firearms" in the USA. Neither can you simply "...go into a store and buy an assault rifle over the counter, no questions asked,...".

ALL firearms sales are subject to a national criminal background check on the purchaser carried out by the FBI. Private sales are excluded but not in California where ALL sales must be carried out via a licensed dealer who must do the background check on the purchaser.

People who simply parrot the line that "a ban may take a long time but will eventually solve the problem" simply do not understand the situation in the USA and it's relationship to firearms. Being able to defend your self, family and the American way of life with personal weapons is far too ingrained in the US psyche to be changed like that. Especially in the Southern States. Places like Texas would simply refuse to enforce a Federal law which made huge restrictions on the ownership of firearms. It would be no different to a law which purported to ban Christianity or a persons right to vote.

Americans need to be taught to treat one another with civility and respect and not to treat others like crap. That is the real problem with the USA of late. They have had basically the same gun laws since 1968 yet mass shootings have become a lot more prevalent in recent years.

[AJL308]

johnxjsc1985 said:

have any of these disaster ever been stopped because they came across someone who shot back?.

Yes, the one in Texas earlier in the year. Two Muslim terrorists shot to death by civilians when they started an attack.

Perhaps the question you should be asking should be more along the lines of "How many of these attacks take place in places where there are armed people?".

Once again this one in CA took place where guns are not allowed.

Edited by AJL308 on Thursday 3rd December 15:42

[anonymous-user]

Love it! The solution to the problem of people with guns is ... more people with guns. The gun crazies trot that line out every time. To the gun crazies, the right to bear arms (a right the historical basis of which they do not understand, or willfully misrepresent) trumps an infinite number of piled corpses. Children, even babies, good guys, bad guys, no matter. Freedom trumps life. I use the term gun crazies deliberately. If you think that in a modern, developed and populous democracy people should be walking around with guns, you are crazy. If you think that US gun culture is not deeply problematic, you are crazy. The true mark of a civilization is not how well armed its people are, but how unarmed they are.

If people really are less civil now than they used to be, then maybe it's time to take the guns away from people who cannot be trusted to be civil. That'll be everyone then.

Back to solving guns with guns. Whoops!

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-good-guy-wit...

[rambo19]

My brother lives in virginia, USA, and is very pro-gun, he owns quite a few and when I visit I do a fair bit of shooting with him.

I would say 99% of pro-gun people I meet in the USA have no problem with gun control, what they do want is the ilegal guns off the street 1st, and then gun control.

[ikarl]

Breadvan72 said:

November 2015, with links:-

Stuff....

I know I shouldn't, but it's hard not to laugh when you read some of those stories.

It's like a country full of really immature children - and I say that from a position of still finding 'farting' funny!

[anonymous-user]

rambo19 said:

My brother lives in virginia, USA, and is very pro-gun, he owns quite a few and when I visit I do a fair bit of shooting with him.

I would say 99% of pro-gun people I meet in the USA have no problem with gun control, what they do want is the ilegal guns off the street 1st, and then gun control.

Tell that to the NRA. They claim to speak for the so called responsible gun owners, but block all attempts at sensible reform.

[AJL308]

Breadvan72 said:

Love it! The solution to the problem of people with guns is ... more people with guns. The gun crazies trot that line out every time. To the gun crazies, the right to bear arms (a right the historical basis of which they do not understand, or willfully misrepresent) trumps an infinite number of piled copses. Children, even babies, good guys, bad guys, no matter. Freedom trumps life. I use the term gun crazies deliberately. if you think that in a modern, developed and populous democracy people should be walking around with guns, you are crazy. If you think that US gun culture is not deeply problematic, you are crazy. The true mark of a civilization is not how well armed its people are, but how unarmed they are.

If people really are less civil now than they used to be, then maybe it's time to take the guns away from people who cannot be trusted to be civil. That'll be everyone then.

Back to solving guns with guns. Whoops!

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-good-guy-wit...

On a logical basis I don't necessarily disagree. However, if you want to actually find a solution to the problem the USA is currently facing re: gun crime then you have to accept the practical reality of the situation. That reality is that simply enacting more firearms control legislation isn't going to work. It won't work for all of the reasons I've given.

Trying to take away guns from the the US populous (especially the vast number of people who never pose a problem) is just as big a fantasy as you think it is to use them to defend your self. It simply isn't going to work and anyone who thinks that it will obviously has no understanding of the realities of American gun ownership. It's part of their constitution, second only to freedom of speech. Swinging firearms restrictions will result in total carnage.

[Oakey]

There are a lot of drugs in circulation too but you still make an active attempt to prevent that. I don't see anyone using the argument "well, there's a lot of drugs in the country and despite how much we seize more still comes in, so maybe we just don't bother?"

[AJL308]

Oakey said:

There are a lot of drugs in circulation too but you still make an active attempt to prevent that. I don't see anyone using the argument "well, there's a lot of drugs in the country and despite how much we seize more still comes in, so maybe we just don't bother?"

Rubbish analogy. Drugs aren't protected by the US Constitution and aren't seen as one of the fundamental freedoms on which society is founded.

[Oakey]

AJL308 said:

Rubbish analogy. Drugs aren't protected by the US Constitution and aren't seen as one of the fundamental freedoms on which society is founded.

It's a centuries old bit of paper, times change. I hate to break it to you but the founding fathers were mere men, they put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. They weren't infallible. If they'd decreed in the constitution you have to fellate a horse every third Sunday would you be so eager to defend your right to do that too?