Christianity in Britain declining

[cirian75]

I've not considered my self religious at all when an event occurred aged 13, that made me realise it was about, power, fear and control.

But I won't mock those who who are, even though internally my eyes a rolling into the back of my head.

[Derek Smith]

ATG said:

Anyone who argues that religion is a significant cause of war and suffering needs to give some examples, because I can't think of a single major war caused by religion.

Over the years there have been many religious wars. We call those in France the French Religious Wars. It's a bit of a clue. In my lifetime there's been the horror of the Indian religious wars, which are continuing to an extent even now.

Take a holiday in Sudan and then come back on here and tell us all how sunni, christians and shi'ites live together in harmony without a raised voice between them.

In this country with the loss of control by the various churches on schools came a lessening of its power to influence. We would, I expect, and fervently hope, not answer the call to kill other christians just because they did things differently. But many did in the 3rd(?) crusade.

As for suffering, the list is endless. As the religious grip on legislation decreases we get more freedoms. I was born at a time when homosexuality was a crime. That the sexual offences act, which made it an exemption to prosecution in certain circumstances, got through parliament is so much of a miracle that it could almost convert me. However, think of how it must have been for those whose predilections made them criminals if they acted on them.

There were sermons in churches at the time, much letter writing and such from those quoting scriptures. It was a religious law. In fact someone in parliament said that the law should not concern itself with what is a sin.

Given the pressure on them, it was quite remarkable that so many, a majority in fact, in parliament voted in favour of legalising it, albeit conditionally.

And I expect you expected the Spanish Inquisition. Fair bit of suffering there I believe.

And the British Civil Wars were largely religiously based. It was one form of christianity against another. If Chas has not made his sympathies for catholicism so apparent, there would not have been a civil war, at least not then.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Esseesse said:

Now we have schools where the state has the say on morality, where children are taught how to reproduce rather than their times tables. And do dogmatic politically correct atheists believe any other beliefs are worth anything? And are UK schools and Universities now not where a left wing indoctrination takes place?

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 1st February 17:28

Have I logged on the Daily Mail website in error?

[Halb]

Nice to see Göbekli Tepe referenced. It destroys the accepted timeline of history.
It can be difficult to think (for me) that people who could create astronomical/seasonal aligned buildings would believe in Gods, but then Christians believe some barmy st and we make incredible things today, creativity and sound reasoning are not mutually exclusive.
From what I've read the religion of ancient Egypt was a life culture, akin to what Islam is today for some. To breathe was to be a part of it, as above, so below.

---

Yes religion has caused wars, but possibly worse, it has been responsible for the destruction of knowledge and the restriction of advance over the millennia.

[Esseesse]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Esseesse said:

Now we have schools where the state has the say on morality, where children are taught how to reproduce rather than their times tables. And do dogmatic politically correct atheists believe any other beliefs are worth anything? And are UK schools and Universities now not where a left wing indoctrination takes place?

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 1st February 17:28

Have I logged on the Daily Mail website in error?

Do you have anything stronger than that? What do you disagree with? It seems that at many universities 'no platforming' people who hold the wrong opinions is not unheard of.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Esseesse said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Esseesse said:

Now we have schools where the state has the say on morality, where children are taught how to reproduce rather than their times tables. And do dogmatic politically correct atheists believe any other beliefs are worth anything? And are UK schools and Universities now not where a left wing indoctrination takes place?

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 1st February 17:28

Have I logged on the Daily Mail website in error?

Do you have anything stronger than that? What do you disagree with? It seems that at many universities 'no platforming' people who hold the wrong opinions is not unheard of.

Yes, I disagree, it's drivel. What link is there between atheism and left wingers? I was reading about Terry Wogan's atheism in the paper yesterday, was he one of your dangerous lefty indoctrinators. Are there no conservative atheists?

Children are not taught how to reproduce. There is no practical for them to complete! They are taught about reproduction, but this has not been at the expense of times tables, that they are also taught. In fact, they are taught maths throughout their schooling, whereas sex education is a tiny part of the curriculum.

Why don't you actually think about what your are saying, instead of churning out complete crap that you've heard from someone else.

[cymtriks]

Derek Smith said:

Over the years there have been many religious wars.

Repeating something does not make it true.

Derek Smith said:

1)French Religious Wars.
2)Indian religious wars
3)Sudan sunni, christians and shi'ites
4)3rd(?) crusade.

Straight from Wikipedia, this is so easy...

1)The conflict involved the factional disputes between the aristocratic houses of France, such as the House of Bourbon and House of Guise (Lorraine), and both sides received assistance from foreign sources.

2)After the dissolution of the British Raj in 1947, two new sovereign nations were formed....

3)...the central government expanding and dominating peoples of the periphery, raising allegations of marginalization. Kingdoms and great powers based along the Nile River have fought against the people of inland Sudan for centuries. Since at least the 17th century, central governments have attempted to regulate and exploit the undeveloped southern and inland Sudan.

4)The Crusades are a bit more involved as the Middle East campaigns can be seen as defending European control of the Eastern Mediterranean and as a counter offensive against the Middle East armies who had been attacking Europe (The Battle of Tours might give you a clue as to how serious this threat was, it's half way across France! ) .... anyway from Wikipedia .... the Zengid dynasty controlled a unified Syria and engaged in a conflict with the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Egyptian and Syrian forces were ultimately unified under Saladin...

So there you go. Plenty of dynastic, territorial and financial causes.

Edited by cymtriks on Thursday 4th February 23:40

[Derek Smith]

cymtriks said:

Straight from Wikipedia, this is so easy...

1)The conflict involved the factional disputes between the aristocratic houses of France, such as the House of Bourbon and House of Guise (Lorraine), and both sides received assistance from foreign sources.

2)After the dissolution of the British Raj in 1947, two new sovereign nations were formed....

3)...the central government expanding and dominating peoples of the periphery, raising allegations of marginalization. Kingdoms and great powers based along the Nile River have fought against the people of inland Sudan for centuries. Since at least the 17th century, central governments have attempted to regulate and exploit the undeveloped southern and inland Sudan.

4)The Crusades are a bit more involved as the Middle East campaigns can be seen as defending European control of the Eastern Mediterranean and as a counter offensive against the Middle East armies who had been attacking Europe (The Battle of Tours might give you a clue as to how serious this threat was, it's half way across France! ) .... anyway from Wikipedia .... the Zengid dynasty controlled a unified Syria and engaged in a conflict with the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. The Egyptian and Syrian forces were ultimately unified under Saladin...

So there you go. Plenty of dynastic, territorial and financial causes.

Edited by cymtriks on Thursday 4th February 23:40

Quoting Wiki is no way to win an argument.

I didn't suggest that there was only one reason for the wars I quoted. Taking your last point first, you seem to be making the assumption that religions have not dynastic, territorial or, rather remarkably, financial desires. Any brief review of the history of the western catholic church will indicate that this is likely to be incorrect. Further reading will confirm this.

That there were reasons other than religious for the French religious wars is a given. However, at the time the church was a massive player, perhaps the most influential, and was involved.

I'm not sure how you can dismiss the religious wars in the Indian sub-continent by mentioning the Raj. It is still going on and is based solely on which religion you profess.

The crusades were started by the then pope. His motives were his own, but they were religion based. The third, I thin, was the one which was aimed at the eastern catholic church. It wasn't a 'normal' war and the eastern catholics had no desire to fight the western catholics. The pope gave a 'do not pass go' card to the bloke in charge of the attack on the eastern catholic church where their believers had taken to to avoid being killed. The pope was especially impressed by the bloke saying that the blood from the bodies went half way up his horse's legs. The victims were unarmed and taking refuge in their church. Their catholic church.

I'm not suggesting all wars are religiously based, but given that its tentacles were everywhere, in every country at the time, the holy roman empire was involved in every one in one way or another or more.

That said, there was little doubt that the various popes and such were hardly following their saviour. But that's religion for you.

[Halb]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
These are the wars that had a solid religious or pure religious grounding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_rel...
Though religion pops up all over the show as a player.

[anonymous-user]

It's funny how you always refer back to centuries old wars to try to justify your stance, when if you actually looked at the major wars of the 20th century, the wars of our time, then it's quite evident that doesn't really support your position at all. I can't believe you actually think it would wash.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Do you have any evidence for that? The 7/7 bombers, wasn't one a youth worker or classroom support assistant or something quite worthwhile. And another a medical student. Where's the evidence that without radicalisation by Islamic loons, they wouldn't have go on to live perfectly normal lives?

I'm often struck by the apparent normality of many of these religious nutters before religious nuttyism took hold.

What do you think would have turned them into murdering bds in religion's absence?

[Derek Smith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

We only have to look to the Middle East to see current religious wars. We only have to look at the Indian sub-continent to see current religious wars. We look to Africa to find? Yes, you've guessed it, religious wars.

The reply was to the question to justify a claim that there have been religious wars. One would assume that you do not disagree that there have been religious wars in the past so the job is done.

The major wars of the 20thC were not religious wars. They were nation against nation with no desire, I would assume, to change beliefs, but perhaps that was due, in no small degree, to religion not being seen as important any more, at least by the west. Now we have people with beliefs fighting in the Middle East because of those beliefs. It is a retrograde step.

The loss of religion's control on education and literacy signaled the decline of its authority and its ability to start wars. It would appear that the fundamentalist islamists are not going to make that mistake.

The end of religion would not see the end to wars. I think no one has argued that on here. However, there have been many, many religious wars in the past. There are many current religious wars.

If you'd like to argue that the holy Roman empire was a political entity and the many dead in support and against it should be considered non religious, then that's a separate argument, although one I'd have a certain sympathy for. After all, the western catholics attacked the eastern catholics for no other reason than they were not western catholics so not under the western pope's authority and control. But then most organised religions are political entities.

[///ajd]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Have you heard of ISIS? They've been in the news a bit.

Do you think what they are doing is in any way connected to religion, even if it has arguably been twisted/abused by that group for their ends?

Would more people still have their heads attached to their bodies than say 10 years ago if that was not the case?

[tangerine_sedge]

Esseesse said:

Now we have schools where the state has the say on morality, where children are taught how to reproduce rather than their times tables. And do dogmatic politically correct atheists believe any other beliefs are worth anything? And are UK schools and Universities now not where a left wing indoctrination takes place?

Edited by Esseesse on Monday 1st February 17:28

Lol - just read this.

Morals - it's the parents job to give moral guidance not the schools.

Sex ed - its education of human biology and relationships, and I dont think that any maths classes have been cancelled to make room for sex ed. I'm sure the catholic priests would prefer to keep normal sex and relationships secret from the boys they were abusing

Beliefs in made up sky fairies hold no more weight than anything else made up (however old), so frankly no.

Seeing that most of the UK voting public have been through UK education, I'm startled to find a Tory government in power. If the schools and universities are mind washing people into 'lefties' then they are doing a bad job of it.

Your 'rant' can only be summarised as retarded.

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Do you have any evidence for that? The 7/7 bombers, wasn't one a youth worker or classroom support assistant or something quite worthwhile. And another a medical student. Where's the evidence that without radicalisation by Islamic loons, they wouldn't have go on to live perfectly normal lives?

I'm often struck by the apparent normality of many of these religious nutters before religious nuttyism took hold.

What do you think would have turned them into murdering bds in religion's absence?

Kim Jong Un and the North Korean leadership is probably the most notable example of corrupt thinking without theist basis. KJU inherited an atheist state and was raised an atheist. Feeding people to dogs and shooting people with anti-aircraft guns does seem the product of a corrupt mind. And you speak of some kind of normality before religion influences, Was Dahmer's mind full of lovely thoughts and beliefs before he embarked on chopping up young men?

[Halb]

Derek Smith said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

We only have to look to the Middle East to see current religious wars. We only have to look at the Indian sub-continent to see current religious wars. We look to Africa to find? Yes, you've guessed it, religious wars.

[Derek Smith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The supreme leader is not Kim Jong Un but Kim Jong Ill. Despite being dead, he's still the boss. It is as much a theist religion as catholicism. I'm under the impression, I nearly said believe, that King Jong Ill is due to come again.

It is similar to Japan where the emperor was a god. There have been many theist religions in the past where a living person was a god and when they die, remain in charge. You don't have to be dead to be a god it would appear.

In this country the king was anointed by a god to rule. He/she was worshiped. Chas I could have possibly lived if he'd renounced his god-given immortality.

[anonymous-user]

I think a handful seem to continually miss the point that Cymtriks made that there are many elements and facets to every war which often boil down to tribalism, territorialism, power.......the very things that predate our own self-awareness, which can be seen in nature.

And if Coulibaly's evil stems from Islam can it also be claimed that this man's goodness can be attributed to his religion too?
http://tribune.com.pk/story/1022179/accidental-her...

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The supreme leader is not Kim Jong Un but Kim Jong Ill. Despite being dead, he's still the boss. It is as much a theist religion as catholicism. I'm under the impression, I nearly said believe, that King Jong Ill is due to come again.

It is similar to Japan where the emperor was a god. There have been many theist religions in the past where a living person was a god and when they die, remain in charge. You don't have to be dead to be a god it would appear.

In this country the king was anointed by a god to rule. He/she was worshiped. Chas I could have possibly lived if he'd renounced his god-given immortality.

If you think about it, what you have written their is a perfect example to support what I, and a few others have been saying.

[Derek Smith]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Did he act that way solely because he was afraid of the wrath of his god? Did he act that way because it is stated in his religion that he should rescue the infidel (in which case he'd better go back to the books) or did he act that way because he was a really decent and moral chap?

I dealt with a bloke who helped out casualties at a road traffic accident and probably saved a life, and possibly two. The senior officer at the scene wrote him up for an award, which he got. He rode a BMW twin. At that time I owned one, or perhaps just sold it, and we ended up chatting when he got the shakes after the emergency services arrived. I doubt his goodness can be attributed to his taste in motorcycles.