Douglas Carswell: UKIP needs a 'fresh face' as leader
Discussion
rs1952 said:
The trouble is, whether you think Farage is the New Messiah or not (and the honourable member for Clacton appears to have his own view), the fact still remains that an electoral breakthrough has yet to happen. He might perform well on a rostrum but it increasingly appears that only the "converted" are listening.
Five attempts at a seat in the Commins - all failures
One MP, and a defector from the tory party at that who probably wishes by now he hadn't bothered
A decent number of local councillors, all busying themselves with getting the local dustbins emptied and the potholes repaired
UKIP "won" the European election that most people think is totally irrelevant to them, and on the usual piss-poor turnout that these things usually attract
Not, IMHO, a particularly impressive CV for a leader of a political party.
There are people on this thread who will now shoot me down in flames saying what a wonderful leader the man is. Personally, I couldn't give a toss whether he remains leader or not but, as the leader, it will probably ensure that UKIP never makes the breakthrough they are looking for.
Then again, I can't see anybody else in the limelight in the party who would be likely to do any better, with the possible exception of Suzanne Evans. But of course she upset the Glorious Leader not long ago and got sacked. And then unsacked. Anybody else see a pattern unique to UKIP here?
I would agree, despite polling well they haven't translated it into seats and so they are as irrelevant as the Green Party. In my view Farage seems to go wrong at election time and chase the far right vote which alienates a lot of people, even if it attracts some in here.Five attempts at a seat in the Commins - all failures
One MP, and a defector from the tory party at that who probably wishes by now he hadn't bothered
A decent number of local councillors, all busying themselves with getting the local dustbins emptied and the potholes repaired
UKIP "won" the European election that most people think is totally irrelevant to them, and on the usual piss-poor turnout that these things usually attract
Not, IMHO, a particularly impressive CV for a leader of a political party.
There are people on this thread who will now shoot me down in flames saying what a wonderful leader the man is. Personally, I couldn't give a toss whether he remains leader or not but, as the leader, it will probably ensure that UKIP never makes the breakthrough they are looking for.
Then again, I can't see anybody else in the limelight in the party who would be likely to do any better, with the possible exception of Suzanne Evans. But of course she upset the Glorious Leader not long ago and got sacked. And then unsacked. Anybody else see a pattern unique to UKIP here?
greygoose said:
I would agree, despite polling well they haven't translated it into seats and so they are as irrelevant as the Green Party. In my view Farage seems to go wrong at election time and chase the far right vote which alienates a lot of people, even if it attracts some in here.
IIRC circa 4 million voted UKIP which was about 100 times as many votes for its lone elected MP than the Conservatives needed for each of theirs. alfie2244 said:
greygoose said:
I would agree, despite polling well they haven't translated it into seats and so they are as irrelevant as the Green Party. In my view Farage seems to go wrong at election time and chase the far right vote which alienates a lot of people, even if it attracts some in here.
IIRC circa 4 million voted UKIP which was about 100 times as many votes for its lone elected MP than the Conservatives needed for each of theirs. Ironically, we had a chance not long ago to give more seats to UKIP and other second-tier parties like the greens and the lib dems by having a referendum on PR. Which way did you vote on that occasion I wonder...
alfie2244 said:
greygoose said:
I would agree, despite polling well they haven't translated it into seats and so they are as irrelevant as the Green Party. In my view Farage seems to go wrong at election time and chase the far right vote which alienates a lot of people, even if it attracts some in here.
IIRC circa 4 million voted UKIP which was about 100 times as many votes for its lone elected MP than the Conservatives needed for each of theirs. 
rs1952 said:
alfie2244 said:
greygoose said:
I would agree, despite polling well they haven't translated it into seats and so they are as irrelevant as the Green Party. In my view Farage seems to go wrong at election time and chase the far right vote which alienates a lot of people, even if it attracts some in here.
IIRC circa 4 million voted UKIP which was about 100 times as many votes for its lone elected MP than the Conservatives needed for each of theirs. Ironically, we had a chance not long ago to give more seats to UKIP and other second-tier parties like the greens and the lib dems by having a referendum on PR. Which way did you vote on that occasion I wonder...
BTW I am not complaining about the system as we have do deal with what we got but I would guess PR would deliver the smaller parties more seats - is a BBC link ok?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32601281
and FYI prior to 15 GE I hadn't voted on anything since the early 90's.
eharding said:
alfie2244 said:
greygoose said:
I would agree, despite polling well they haven't translated it into seats and so they are as irrelevant as the Green Party. In my view Farage seems to go wrong at election time and chase the far right vote which alienates a lot of people, even if it attracts some in here.
IIRC circa 4 million voted UKIP which was about 100 times as many votes for its lone elected MP than the Conservatives needed for each of theirs. Scuffers said:
Stupid argument, only the voters of Clayton voted for carswell, 19,642 of them.
4 million voted for ukip
You might have missed the reference to "100 times as many votes for its lone elected MP" to which I was replying.4 million voted for ukip
Nonetheless, Carswell clearly *does* understand what it takes to be elected as a Westminster MP, whereas Farage has repeatedly shown that he does not.
So, in response to alfie2244's question "who would be able to increase the share significantly enough to increase the number of elected MP's", I'd say perhaps someone who has what it takes to get at least himself or herself elected to Westminster?
Scuffers said:
eharding said:
..and is that the UKIP MP who is saying Farage should go? That one? Carswell? Four million votes, you say? The 'kippers should probably listen to him then.
Stupid argument, only the voters of Clayton voted for carswell, 19,642 of them.4 million voted for ukip
Zod said:
Scuffers said:
eharding said:
..and is that the UKIP MP who is saying Farage should go? That one? Carswell? Four million votes, you say? The 'kippers should probably listen to him then.
Stupid argument, only the voters of Clayton voted for carswell, 19,642 of them.4 million voted for ukip
I'd reserve the term 'wasted' for those who had the opportunity to vote, but through sheer indolence failed to do so.
No, I'd say that those 3.78m UKIP votes were to a large degree pissed directly into the wind, rather than wasted.
daily mail link
telegraph
indie
Get with the programme Carswell - just take the money, then they'll stop intimidating you...
Edited to add :
another indie piece
£49k of donations in the last quarter...take the money Carswell!!
telegraph
indie
Get with the programme Carswell - just take the money, then they'll stop intimidating you...
Edited to add :
another indie piece
£49k of donations in the last quarter...take the money Carswell!!
Edited by tangerine_sedge on Tuesday 22 December 11:03
Thorodin said:
Witness now the gradual break up of the party into factions with varying degrees of irrelevance and navel gazing. The inevitability is a shame.
Ignoring the personalities involved, the split is (IMHO) one of old UKIP vs new UKIP positioning. With Douglas Carswell ironically representing old UKIP.UKIP used to be very much of the libertarian/Thatcherite brand of right wing, stealing core Tory voters.
In order to court disgruntled Old Labour voters in previously safe Labour seats, Nigel Farage seems to have turned them into something more akin to the French National Front, i.e. much more socially conservative and economically protectionist.
Mr Carswell should have seen where UKIP was heading prior to his defection, to be honest.
It's Evolutionary. Only what you would expect from a newish Party. Unfortunately not all branches of the evolutionary tree are fruit bearing nor do they necessarily bear fruit of a sweet smelling variety. It might only serve to divide further the existing vote and prompt lengthy PropRep discussions in the face of dwindling constituents. Not unlike SDLP splitting the Labour vote.
Secretly recorded calls.
Blackmail and "grossly intrusive" questions about his private life.
Rumours spread around his constituency.
"Dark forces".
It's like a proper Agatha Christie novel - but who in the party would have enough control to instigate an attack on their only MP?
Even breitbart state its about Carswell not giving up the money to UKIP...
How long until Carswell resigns from UKIP and either returns to the tories or goes Independent? Carswell seems to be a man of honour, so obviously doesn't fit in with the rest of UKIP...
Blackmail and "grossly intrusive" questions about his private life.
Rumours spread around his constituency.
"Dark forces".
It's like a proper Agatha Christie novel - but who in the party would have enough control to instigate an attack on their only MP?
Even breitbart state its about Carswell not giving up the money to UKIP...
How long until Carswell resigns from UKIP and either returns to the tories or goes Independent? Carswell seems to be a man of honour, so obviously doesn't fit in with the rest of UKIP...
vonuber said:
I'm no fan of UKIP but I do think they were royally shafted by our antiquated and frankly s
t voting system.
Why we persevere with it in this day and age I have no idea (well I do - it's in both the tories' and labour's interest to keep it that way).
I think a great many thought the same , especially over at the Guardian in the pre-coalition LibDem years. Probably a little bit two faced to mention it much so much in the light of the last GE result though.t voting system. Why we persevere with it in this day and age I have no idea (well I do - it's in both the tories' and labour's interest to keep it that way).
vonuber said:
Why we persevere with it in this day and age I have no idea (well I do - it's in both the tories' and labour's interest to keep it that way).
Peter Hitchens said:
It has two irreplaceable and unique characteristics. The first is that it provides strong government, constantly challenged by a vigilant and ambitious opposition.
The next is that it allows the people, when enraged or otherwise disappointed by a bad government, to turn it out completely. A peaceful revolution, immensely good for the people and the politicians themselves, is possible every five years and likely every 15 or so.
I cannot tell you what joy it gives me to see a man who was Prime Minister yesterday, powerless the next, supervising only the removal of his furniture from Downing Street.
Proportional systems cannot do this, except in very exceptional circumstances. In a proportional system, the leader you loathe could well end up premier of a new and different coalition later.
On 'legitimacy' and saving FPTPThe next is that it allows the people, when enraged or otherwise disappointed by a bad government, to turn it out completely. A peaceful revolution, immensely good for the people and the politicians themselves, is possible every five years and likely every 15 or so.
I cannot tell you what joy it gives me to see a man who was Prime Minister yesterday, powerless the next, supervising only the removal of his furniture from Downing Street.
Proportional systems cannot do this, except in very exceptional circumstances. In a proportional system, the leader you loathe could well end up premier of a new and different coalition later.
Esseesse said:
It's a strong argument, with merit. The thing about reforming government is the would-be reformers have no way forward planned for when they have changed things. So it's just change for change's sake. Hardly visionary. Hitchen does well in examining what's wrong but like others is short on lucid alternatives.eharding said:
Zod said:
Scuffers said:
eharding said:
..and is that the UKIP MP who is saying Farage should go? That one? Carswell? Four million votes, you say? The 'kippers should probably listen to him then.
Stupid argument, only the voters of Clayton voted for carswell, 19,642 of them.4 million voted for ukip
I'd reserve the term 'wasted' for those who had the opportunity to vote, but through sheer indolence failed to do so.
No, I'd say that those 3.78m UKIP votes were to a large degree pissed directly into the wind, rather than wasted.
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