Moderate Muslims
Discussion
Thanks. I'll get my tech-savvy law breaking hat on and give it a look later.
Been out of the UK for nearly 10 years. Living amongst them evil foreigners. I know what they think.
Dean, it's not about wanting anyone to apologise. It's about wanting to approach the problem of Islamic extremism more intelligently.
Been out of the UK for nearly 10 years. Living amongst them evil foreigners. I know what they think.
Dean, it's not about wanting anyone to apologise. It's about wanting to approach the problem of Islamic extremism more intelligently.
Well I just watched The Jihadis Next Door. Interesting but basically reinforces what I already thought. I suppose most such things do.
Yes the vocal opposition of some Muslims is good.
The impotence of the police and the apparent indifference of the vast majority of other people (Muslims and non Muslims alike) is less so.
The extremists themselves are a curious bunch. A mix of yobbery, frustration and blind faith. Probably mostly unopposed yobbery.
How someone can stand on a street in London and call for the implementation of sharia law or unveil an IS flag in Regents Park and not have people yelling at you? I would probably have to say something.
It's legally difficult for good reason to lock people up for what they say or believe, but I can't help but get the feeling that if you took out a handful of the real hardcore nutters their followers and recruits would evaporate pretty quickly.
It doesn't solve the wider problem though. Not all political Islamists are screaming death to infidels. Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood all oppose ISIS.
Yes the vocal opposition of some Muslims is good.
The impotence of the police and the apparent indifference of the vast majority of other people (Muslims and non Muslims alike) is less so.
The extremists themselves are a curious bunch. A mix of yobbery, frustration and blind faith. Probably mostly unopposed yobbery.
How someone can stand on a street in London and call for the implementation of sharia law or unveil an IS flag in Regents Park and not have people yelling at you? I would probably have to say something.
It's legally difficult for good reason to lock people up for what they say or believe, but I can't help but get the feeling that if you took out a handful of the real hardcore nutters their followers and recruits would evaporate pretty quickly.
It doesn't solve the wider problem though. Not all political Islamists are screaming death to infidels. Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood all oppose ISIS.
I think sharia 'law' is a bit of a misleading term in this case. You can make any agreement for whatever reason you want provided it doesn't conflict with British law. You can't have your wife stoned to death or marry 3 other women.
As I understand it the problem with sharia courts (which applies to other religious courts too, though perhaps in most cases less so) is that people (usually women) face a lot of social pressure to use them and are seen as traitors if they use the mainstream legal system.
As I understand it the problem with sharia courts (which applies to other religious courts too, though perhaps in most cases less so) is that people (usually women) face a lot of social pressure to use them and are seen as traitors if they use the mainstream legal system.
I think the Muslim creation story is pretty much identical to the Christian one. God made the earth, put Adam and Eve on it and that's when the trouble started.
Quite a lot of halal meat is labelled as such, though not always very obviously. There are various sites showing some of the labels.
I don't like unnecessary animal cruelty but I like veal and foei gras, so I'm not going to jump on the animal rights bandwagon all of a sudden as that seems a bit hypocritical. The main reason to avoid this is that the certification bodies are seemingly quite often Islamist groups and buying halal meat could be funding them.
http://www.shariawatch.org.uk/articles/halal#.VqmD...
Quite a lot of halal meat is labelled as such, though not always very obviously. There are various sites showing some of the labels.
I don't like unnecessary animal cruelty but I like veal and foei gras, so I'm not going to jump on the animal rights bandwagon all of a sudden as that seems a bit hypocritical. The main reason to avoid this is that the certification bodies are seemingly quite often Islamist groups and buying halal meat could be funding them.
http://www.shariawatch.org.uk/articles/halal#.VqmD...
All religions have a spectrum of how seriously people take them. The problem with Islam is that some people, if and when they decide to take it more seriously, don't join a monastery or a kibbutz, they join ISIS or the Muslim Brotherhood. They agitate for political domination or fabricate stories to paint themselves as victims of persecution and hamper counter terrorism operations.
The fact is that this is deeply ingrained in the religion in a way that it simply isn't with Christianity or Buddhism.
Until we can face this fact and identify the genuinely peaceful Muslims we're just feeding political and potentially violent Islam.
The fact is that this is deeply ingrained in the religion in a way that it simply isn't with Christianity or Buddhism.
Until we can face this fact and identify the genuinely peaceful Muslims we're just feeding political and potentially violent Islam.
As far as I can tell from a quick google there are about 1,500 mosques in Britain, plus prayer rooms and community centres. I'm sure there are better uses for an extra 2,000 police officers than having them standing around outside these things looking for signs of extremism, whatever they may be.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
rscott said:
Been mentioned many times on here (if not this thread, one of the many other similar ones). FGM is a major problem - no one doubts that - but it's not specific to a particular religion. It's most common in some African countries, a mix of both Christian and Muslim countries..
Not quite true.Although it is almost certainly not Islamic in origin (nor is stoning) it was taken up with enthusiasm as something highly desirable, though not obligatory (except for the Shafi'i school of Sunni Islam, where it is obligatory).
It also appears that it spread to Malaysia and Indonesia with Islam as there is no known tradition of it in the region previously or in Hinduism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_f...
The prejudice I see here is mostly one way. The whole point of the thread was precisely about not lumping people together and identifying those Muslim groups and leaders who are genuinely benign and which are ultimately supremacist and jihadist.
The predictable response from some is that it's just an elaborate cover for how much I dislike Muslims as people and how any talk of it is inherently hostile.
The predictable response from some is that it's just an elaborate cover for how much I dislike Muslims as people and how any talk of it is inherently hostile.
Ridley said:
The problem is that you're not trying to uncover the baddies. Your entire stance is that Islam = bad and therefore Muslims are bad. There might be good ones but how do we go about identifying them?
That's pretty much the size of it. Though I also went to some length on this and other threads to explain exactly why I think Islam is 'bad' (a bit simplistic, but the cap fits).I can't seriously believe you're still banging that pathetic drum.
Even if I am just a massive racist and my actual motivation is that I dislike all brown/black/yellow/white people who are Muslim because they're brown/black/yellow/white, am I wrong about the nature of Islam or the threat that it currently poses?
Even if I am just a massive racist and my actual motivation is that I dislike all brown/black/yellow/white people who are Muslim because they're brown/black/yellow/white, am I wrong about the nature of Islam or the threat that it currently poses?
968
Why is it depressing? The purpose of the thread was to discuss ways of identifying which Muslim groups can be trusted to work with western governments in tackling radical Islamism. I would have thought that should be quite a constructive thread which any Muslim interested in tackling extremism would have much to contribute to.
Unless you mean that it's depressing in terms of BSR popping in every half a page or so to call me racist?
BSR
I'm not applying my prejudices. I didn't write the quran. I didn't sneakily photoshop the extensive quotations onto ISIS' handywork. I didn't scoot back in my Zionist time machine and start a load of baseless rumours about the nature of Mohammed and the origins of the religion he founded.
The violence and supremacism are there in black and white in the core texts of the religion.
The fact that most Muslims don't behave violently is self-evident. There is a dividing line somewhere. What on earth is racist or bigoted about discussing where it lies?
Why is it depressing? The purpose of the thread was to discuss ways of identifying which Muslim groups can be trusted to work with western governments in tackling radical Islamism. I would have thought that should be quite a constructive thread which any Muslim interested in tackling extremism would have much to contribute to.
Unless you mean that it's depressing in terms of BSR popping in every half a page or so to call me racist?
BSR
I'm not applying my prejudices. I didn't write the quran. I didn't sneakily photoshop the extensive quotations onto ISIS' handywork. I didn't scoot back in my Zionist time machine and start a load of baseless rumours about the nature of Mohammed and the origins of the religion he founded.
The violence and supremacism are there in black and white in the core texts of the religion.
The fact that most Muslims don't behave violently is self-evident. There is a dividing line somewhere. What on earth is racist or bigoted about discussing where it lies?
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