Moderate Muslims
Discussion
pork911 said:
huh? why then does islam as a whole need fundamental reform?
Because it appears to be creating a culture of violence, from a core ideology of violence.The exception to that seems to be a handful of genuine reformers, and a middle/majority which is being targeted very efficiently by extremists/radicals/best label.
The western policy response seems to be very haphazard, based on no real understanding of the ideology and only a very limited willingness to grasp it, except when it shows it's most extreme colours via something like IS.
Edited by AJS- on Monday 21st December 11:22
AJS- said:
That's true, but the command wasn't revealed specifically for that context only. Was it? It is eternal. It doesn't only say fight those who have oppressed you, it says fight the non-believers, and those who don't live by the laws of Allah. I believe you're reading a bit too much into 'willing' submission if the only alternative on offer is death.
The jizya (tax only on non-Muslim) was most definitely not restricted to 7th century Arabia. It was imposed throughout much of the Muslim world and the Ottoman Empire up until the 19th century when it was abolished under pressure from European powers. It was reintroduced in parts of Egypt when the Muslim Brotherhood government briefly took power.
And I suppose the point with both of those things is not actually what's in the book but how it's been interpreted and applied for 1,400 years by Islamic scholars and Imams and the governments of Muslim majority countries, and how many would like to see them applied today.
I dont think I am looking into the WILLING part too much. See this is exactly where we have the problem. You can sit and argue about how significant that part of the quote is. This sentence has been interpreted similar to how I have for hundreds and hundreds of years. Without reading the rest of the quran you will realise how important life is (no matter what religion, colour or sex) in Islam. After looking at how we are taught to treat people and how we even go as far as treating prisoners nicely it becomes apparent that life in any from is sacred. The jizya (tax only on non-Muslim) was most definitely not restricted to 7th century Arabia. It was imposed throughout much of the Muslim world and the Ottoman Empire up until the 19th century when it was abolished under pressure from European powers. It was reintroduced in parts of Egypt when the Muslim Brotherhood government briefly took power.
And I suppose the point with both of those things is not actually what's in the book but how it's been interpreted and applied for 1,400 years by Islamic scholars and Imams and the governments of Muslim majority countries, and how many would like to see them applied today.
"By Allah, if you have killed one man, it is as if you have killed all the people."
Source: Sunan Sa’id ibn Mansur 2776, Grade: Sahih
Its easy to sit and cherry pick parts of the quran for your own agenda. But if you dont read the whole thing and try to understand the people and reasons things are being done you might aswell be reading the daily mirror.
AJS- said:
Because it appears to be creating a culture of violence, from a core ideology of violence.
The exception to that seems to be a handful of genuine reformers, and a middle/majority which is being targeted very efficiently by extremists/radicals/best label.
The western policy response seems to be very haphazard, based on no real understanding of the ideology and only a very limited willingness to grasp it, except when it shows it's most extreme colours via something like IS.
i have a lot of decorating to do, could I borrow your brush? broadest i've seen in a while, even hereThe exception to that seems to be a handful of genuine reformers, and a middle/majority which is being targeted very efficiently by extremists/radicals/best label.
The western policy response seems to be very haphazard, based on no real understanding of the ideology and only a very limited willingness to grasp it, except when it shows it's most extreme colours via something like IS.
Edited by AJS- on Monday 21st December 11:22
AJS- said:
pork911 said:
huh? why then does islam as a whole need fundamental reform?
Because it appears to be creating a culture of violence, from a core ideology of violence.The exception to that seems to be a handful of genuine reformers, and a middle/majority which is being targeted very efficiently by extremists/radicals/best label.
The western policy response seems to be very haphazard, based on no real understanding of the ideology and only a very limited willingness to grasp it, except when it shows it's most extreme colours via something like IS.
Edited by AJS- on Monday 21st December 11:22
Most of these are core fundamentals in Islam agreed by every sect!
Edited by triggerh4ppy on Monday 21st December 11:47
It's not about having an agenda Trigger. I would like to believe that it is peaceful. But does this not relate directly to Quran 5:32
Pork
With the greatest respect, bigotry/racism whatever you're implying has been covered ad nauseum on the Trump and other threads. If you think I'm a horrible racist bigot just or asking these questions then feel free. Even if that is so, does it make the conversation itself wrong? If so please say so and why.
Koran 5:32 said:
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Meaning that this injunction only applies to the children of Israel, i.e. Jews?Pork
With the greatest respect, bigotry/racism whatever you're implying has been covered ad nauseum on the Trump and other threads. If you think I'm a horrible racist bigot just or asking these questions then feel free. Even if that is so, does it make the conversation itself wrong? If so please say so and why.
[quote]
Meaning that this injunction only applies to the children of Israel, i.e. Jews?
[/quote]
Not true, The Children of Israel are the Semitic people that includes the Hebrews and Arabs. Israel was one of the descendants of Abraham, not the name of a country or a particular race. There never was a Nation called Israel until 1947. All of the Semitic people trace their ancestry Back to Ibrahim. Basically anyone who followed the abrahamic monotheistic religion at the time (which was islam/judaism/christianity).
Meaning that this injunction only applies to the children of Israel, i.e. Jews?
[/quote]
Not true, The Children of Israel are the Semitic people that includes the Hebrews and Arabs. Israel was one of the descendants of Abraham, not the name of a country or a particular race. There never was a Nation called Israel until 1947. All of the Semitic people trace their ancestry Back to Ibrahim. Basically anyone who followed the abrahamic monotheistic religion at the time (which was islam/judaism/christianity).
AJS- said:
Trigger
I would be interested to know where that executive summary comes from?
Was a document issued by muslim scholars.I would be interested to know where that executive summary comes from?
https://www.rt.com/news/190468-muslim-scholars-isl...
Interesting. I have more to read on this and will return to it. Thanks Trigger.
In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
And TTwiggy thank you for your amazing consistency in contributing nothing but banal insults to a potentially interesting conversation.
In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
And TTwiggy thank you for your amazing consistency in contributing nothing but banal insults to a potentially interesting conversation.
AJS- said:
Interesting. I have more to read on this and will return to it. Thanks Trigger.
In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
And TTwiggy thank you for your amazing consistency in contributing nothing but banal insults to a potentially interesting conversation.
I'll stop when you stop turning this forum into a one-man crusade.In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
And TTwiggy thank you for your amazing consistency in contributing nothing but banal insults to a potentially interesting conversation.
TTwiggy said:
I'll stop when you stop turning this forum into a one-man crusade.
Why don't you just stop anyway? I have explained at great length that I am not racist and have nothing against Muslims as people. There is now actually an interesting discussion developing with an apparently sincere Muslim who appears happy to discuss it, and I hope doesn't feel persecuted or vilified by my questions (Trigger?) and has put forward some interesting information which I may have missed, and which may change my view.And you, as usual, try to drag it back down to idiotic slurs implying I am some sort of unhinged hate monger.
There are plenty of threads about other stuff and you're free to start your own and ignore this one.
Sam All said:
TTwiggy said:
I'll stop when you stop turning this forum into a one-man crusade.
The ball ,the ball.AJS- said:
TTwiggy said:
I'll stop when you stop turning this forum into a one-man crusade.
Why don't you just stop anyway? I have explained at great length that I am not racist and have nothing against Muslims as people. There is now actually an interesting discussion developing with an apparently sincere Muslim who appears happy to discuss it, and I hope doesn't feel persecuted or vilified by my questions (Trigger?) and has put forward some interesting information which I may have missed, and which may change my view.And you, as usual, try to drag it back down to idiotic slurs implying I am some sort of unhinged hate monger.
There are plenty of threads about other stuff and you're free to start your own and ignore this one.
I think that your obsession is doing damage to the reputation of this forum. I am a registered user of this forum so this affects me. Hence, I will comment.
Trigger
From what I can find it seems that Children of Israel refers to specifically the 12 tribes of the sons of Jacob.
http://corpus.quran.com/concept.jsp?id=israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Ja...
In my understanding this would not include the Pagans or other Arabs of the time who were not already Jewish. Was Mohammed a child of Israel?
From what I can find it seems that Children of Israel refers to specifically the 12 tribes of the sons of Jacob.
http://corpus.quran.com/concept.jsp?id=israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Ja...
In my understanding this would not include the Pagans or other Arabs of the time who were not already Jewish. Was Mohammed a child of Israel?
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