Moderate Muslims
Discussion
AJS- said:
Twiggy
I think your insistence on calling me insane when I am engaged in an honest and open debate is far more damaging than my having an interest in Islam.
Report it to the mods if you feel that strongly.
'An interest in Islam'. Are you going for some award in understatement? I think your insistence on calling me insane when I am engaged in an honest and open debate is far more damaging than my having an interest in Islam.
Report it to the mods if you feel that strongly.
Johnnytheboy said:
Why not just call moderates "Muslims"?
And call the ones that want to kill people "Lunatics"?
And the ones in between that don't want to kill people, but tacitly approve of others doing it in their name "Islamists"?
Lunatics do things at random. There appears to be some (warped) scheme to Islamic violence. To me it seems essential that we understand this in order to effectively defend against it.And call the ones that want to kill people "Lunatics"?
And the ones in between that don't want to kill people, but tacitly approve of others doing it in their name "Islamists"?
AJS- said:
Interesting. I have more to read on this and will return to it. Thanks Trigger.
In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
And TTwiggy thank you for your amazing consistency in contributing nothing but banal insults to a potentially interesting conversation.
Well read scholar of islam? I dont think anyone has ever known him or called him a scholar. No one even knows where he appeared from. All the main scholars of islam have never heard of him until now. So I wouldnt call him a scholar at allIn the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
And TTwiggy thank you for your amazing consistency in contributing nothing but banal insults to a potentially interesting conversation.
AJS- said:
Trigger
From what I can find it seems that Children of Israel refers to specifically the 12 tribes of the sons of Jacob.
http://corpus.quran.com/concept.jsp?id=israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Ja...
In my understanding this would not include the Pagans or other Arabs of the time who were not already Jewish. Was Mohammed a child of Israel?
Yes he was a decendant of abraham and so was jacob, so yes he was. Also please try not to use wikipedia. I know its an easy source of information but I have read some tripe on there (not related to religion).From what I can find it seems that Children of Israel refers to specifically the 12 tribes of the sons of Jacob.
http://corpus.quran.com/concept.jsp?id=israel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Ja...
In my understanding this would not include the Pagans or other Arabs of the time who were not already Jewish. Was Mohammed a child of Israel?
AJS- said:
Lunatics do things at random. There appears to be some (warped) scheme to Islamic violence. To me it seems essential that we understand this in order to effectively defend against it.
i think youll find a lot of lunatics will try to back up with lunacy with some sort of religion/god told me to do it/aliens told me to do it/the queen mother told me to do it. If muslims dont define these people as muslims. I dont think anyone else should.
triggerh4ppy said:
Well read scholar of islam? I dont think anyone has ever known him or called him a scholar. No one even knows where he appeared from. All the main scholars of islam have never heard of him until now. So I wouldnt call him a scholar at all
Wikipedia seems to have a fairly good ideahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghda...
PhD in Islamic studies from the Islamic University of Baghdad according to Iraqi and US intelligence. They sound like fair credentials.
AJS- said:
It's not about having an agenda Trigger. I would like to believe that it is peaceful. But does this not relate directly to Quran 5:32
Just quickly popped my head in this thread to say this.Koran 5:32 said:
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Meaning that this injunction only applies to the children of Israel, i.e. Jews?As I understand it, and you have to look at it in its historical context, the reality of the verse is that it serves a purpose, the very purpose it served the children of Israel when they were the Muslims of their time, while the tyrannical Pharaoh, Philistine's Goliat, etc were the pagans [idolaters/disbelievers].
There is a reason the verse in question is revealed to the Muslims from a theological point of view. If we freeze the time it was revealed, we can conclude that the children of Israel were cautioned in their time by the very verse and same was passed on to serve the same value to caution and or prevent Muslims from being excessive as the children of Israel were and or just being told outright to realize the value of each soul or all of the above.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it strikes me that you view Islam as a religion through someone else's eyes/ critique/ analysis.I am suspicious like that. Whose book are you reading? and have you really tried to read the Quran? it's a complicated book, repetitive, and it jumps from one topic to another, then it jumps back to a previous topic etc... You cannot read the book without knowing the backdrop and the history, so I would suggest you read up on 7th century pre-Islamic Arabia first.
I will not accuse you of intellectual dishonesty, but it would be interesting to know EXACTLY what your thoughts are instead of parroting someone else's thoughts. You state that you're an atheist, and so am I BTW, so if you think that Christianity is beyond reproach when you compare it to 'violent' Islam, you are what I would call, and borrowing from R. Dawkins, "Dyed-in-the-wool-faith-head-wanna-be-atheist".
PS: I cannot respond further, Christmas is close by, and I need to press on with buying presents etc.. so my contributions on PH are limited hence me not responding to you in the Trump's thread, so don't go flapping your wings around feeling victorious.
PPS: Yes even atheists ex-C-O-E like me love Christmas, just like Dawkins loves Christmas carols
Merry Christmas everyone!
Edited by allnighter on Monday 21st December 13:40
allnighter said:
Just quickly popped my head in this thread to say this.
As I understand it, and you have to look at it in its historical context, the reality of the verse is that it serves a purpose, the very purpose it served the children of Israel when they were the Muslims of their time, while the tyrannical Pharaoh, Philistine's Goliat, etc were the pagans [idolaters/disbelievers].
There is a reason the verse in question is revealed to the Muslims from a theological point of view. If we freeze the time it was revealed, we can conclude that the children of Israel were cautioned in their time by the very verse and same was passed on to serve the same value to caution and or prevent Muslims from being excessive as the children of Israel were and or just being told outright to realize the value of each soul or all of the above.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it strikes me that you view Islam as a religion through someone else's eyes/ critique/ analysis.I am suspicious like that. Whose book are you reading? and have you really tried to read the Quran? it's a complicated book, repetitive, and it jumps from one topic to another, then it jumps back to a previous topic etc... You cannot read the book without knowing the backdrop and the history, so I would suggest you read up on 7th century pre-Islamic Arabia first.
I will not accuse you of intellectual dishonesty, but it would be interesting to know EXACTLY what your thoughts are instead of parroting someone else's thought. You state that you're an atheist, and so am I BTW, so if you think that Christianity is beyond reproach when you compare it to 'violent' Islam, you are what I would call, and borrowing from R. Dawkins, "Dyed-in-the-wool-faith-head-wanna-be-atheist".
PS: I cannot respond further, Christmas is close by, and I need to press on with buying presents etc.. so my contributions on PH are limited hence me not responding to you in the Trump's thread, so don't go flapping your wings around feeling victorious.
PPS: Yes even atheists ex-C-O-E like me love Christmas, just like Dawkins loves Christmas carols
Merry Christmas everyone!
Merry Christmas!! Enjoy yourself! and to those who don't celebrate Christmas enjoy your holidays!As I understand it, and you have to look at it in its historical context, the reality of the verse is that it serves a purpose, the very purpose it served the children of Israel when they were the Muslims of their time, while the tyrannical Pharaoh, Philistine's Goliat, etc were the pagans [idolaters/disbelievers].
There is a reason the verse in question is revealed to the Muslims from a theological point of view. If we freeze the time it was revealed, we can conclude that the children of Israel were cautioned in their time by the very verse and same was passed on to serve the same value to caution and or prevent Muslims from being excessive as the children of Israel were and or just being told outright to realize the value of each soul or all of the above.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it strikes me that you view Islam as a religion through someone else's eyes/ critique/ analysis.I am suspicious like that. Whose book are you reading? and have you really tried to read the Quran? it's a complicated book, repetitive, and it jumps from one topic to another, then it jumps back to a previous topic etc... You cannot read the book without knowing the backdrop and the history, so I would suggest you read up on 7th century pre-Islamic Arabia first.
I will not accuse you of intellectual dishonesty, but it would be interesting to know EXACTLY what your thoughts are instead of parroting someone else's thought. You state that you're an atheist, and so am I BTW, so if you think that Christianity is beyond reproach when you compare it to 'violent' Islam, you are what I would call, and borrowing from R. Dawkins, "Dyed-in-the-wool-faith-head-wanna-be-atheist".
PS: I cannot respond further, Christmas is close by, and I need to press on with buying presents etc.. so my contributions on PH are limited hence me not responding to you in the Trump's thread, so don't go flapping your wings around feeling victorious.
PPS: Yes even atheists ex-C-O-E like me love Christmas, just like Dawkins loves Christmas carols
Merry Christmas everyone!
AJS- said:
Wikipedia seems to have a fairly good idea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghda...
PhD in Islamic studies from the Islamic University of Baghdad according to Iraqi and US intelligence. They sound like fair credentials.
i have a masters in automotive engineering. Doesn't mean im a good engineer. Saying that they was people on my course who couldnt speak a word of english and didnt have a clue what was going on and still passed the exam somehow.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghda...
PhD in Islamic studies from the Islamic University of Baghdad according to Iraqi and US intelligence. They sound like fair credentials.
I am also chartered... again it means F all
Alpine
Very good.
Who is the greater weirdo, the one with an interest in an important subject or the one who follows him around telling him this interest is unhealthy?
Trigger
Interesting. So all descendants of Abraham are Children of Israel?
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
Very good.
Who is the greater weirdo, the one with an interest in an important subject or the one who follows him around telling him this interest is unhealthy?
Trigger
Interesting. So all descendants of Abraham are Children of Israel?
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
Voldemort said:
AJS- said:
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
Do we think AJS is aware that he is a massive racist or simply a t
t?AJS- said:
Alpine
Very good.
Who is the greater weirdo, the one with an interest in an important subject or the one who follows him around telling him this interest is unhealthy?
Trigger
Interesting. So all descendants of Abraham are Children of Israel?
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
Very good.
Who is the greater weirdo, the one with an interest in an important subject or the one who follows him around telling him this interest is unhealthy?
Trigger
Interesting. So all descendants of Abraham are Children of Israel?
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
To be honest it's hard getting away from you on NP&E these days, you're so obsessed with your own words. But in the spirit of the festive period, Merry Xmas. Hope you manage to get away from the Quran for a bit x.
Allnighter - Merry Xmas to you too.
AJS- said:
Interesting. I have more to read on this and will return to it. Thanks Trigger.
In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
Pity you didn't read it when it has been posted on nearly all the other Muslim threads on here. It's taken from this - http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/In the mean time though, how does al-Baghdadi, also a well read scholar of Islam arrive at such wildly different opinions in your view? Is it pure cynicism and power grabbing?
AJS- said:
Pork
With the greatest respect, bigotry/racism whatever you're implying has been covered ad nauseum on the Trump and other threads. If you think I'm a horrible racist bigot just or asking these questions then feel free. Even if that is so, does it make the conversation itself wrong? If so please say so and why.
who mentioned bigotry or racism? With the greatest respect, bigotry/racism whatever you're implying has been covered ad nauseum on the Trump and other threads. If you think I'm a horrible racist bigot just or asking these questions then feel free. Even if that is so, does it make the conversation itself wrong? If so please say so and why.
the idiocy you have displayed just in this thread requires no deeper understanding of whatever the roots of it may be
you wish to combat a problem of your own imagining and to only discuss it on your terms - just use a mirror
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