Moderate Muslims

[RichB]

Tsubaki said:

Exactly, that’s why I asked. When ever someone questions something about Islam, as sure as eggs are eggs, someone (usually non muslim) will pop up and say ‘what about christianity/old testament just as bad' etc.

Yes, we know that and if someone could point me to the ‘moderate christian, sikh, hindu, jew etc’ threads I’d happily ask the same question. But this is the moderate ‘muslim’ thread so it would be interesting to hear what the the Islamic stance is on these matters in the light of the last 200 years or so of scientific advance and research into cosmology and Palaeontology?

Well said.

[Troubleatmill]

RichB said:

Tsubaki said:

Exactly, that’s why I asked. When ever someone questions something about Islam, as sure as eggs are eggs, someone (usually non muslim) will pop up and say ‘what about christianity/old testament just as bad' etc.

Yes, we know that and if someone could point me to the ‘moderate christian, sikh, hindu, jew etc’ threads I’d happily ask the same question. But this is the moderate ‘muslim’ thread so it would be interesting to hear what the the Islamic stance is on these matters in the light of the last 200 years or so of scientific advance and research into cosmology and Palaeontology?

Well said.

I would temper this with.... this is not a witch hunt.

In some previous threads I have had responses of "Christianity is worse"...:"e.g.... the taxi driver I had in during Ramadan who was unfit to drive was me with " Yeah..but alcohol is worse!!"
What I was expecting to hear... and astonished I never did was." Yeah fella... you are right... that taxi driver was a total knob.... to risk his passengers lives because he desires to not drink during daylight... he's an idiot."
Every single thing was defensive... and argumentative.

Now.. one bloke stood up to the plate... I cannot remember the name of the fellow Pistonheader.. but he answered the question with a clear answer .. Replied "Huzzah" or something... Possibly the school exams thread..
But... he actually said... " Fella.. we don;t need this.. why bother???" If they want to move the exams for the benefit of everyone so be it.
Many others had the hackles up and get the pots of boing oil ready to repel boarders....



The whole premise is.... for the last 90 years or so.. Islam followers have been integrating into UK society.
But... we are now in an age where there is an unprecedented influx of Islam followers. Many of which have very strong views on women, socialising with non muslims, selling alcohol, etc etc etc etc... ( so many threads on this )... and just do not get that whatever their society norms are.... are irrelevant... they wish to join someone elses society... and that means... they change... not everyone else.



Edit... what would help is..... if Muslim contributors wished to be anonymous... temporarily broke the rules... set up a new account... and posted back after 30 or so days

We don;t want witch hunts... we would like to understand more of the main Uk Muslim thinking. BTW... I have just started that book I said I would buy... I'll post back in a couple of weeks on what I thought.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 26th January 23:05

[Zod]

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

[Troubleatmill]

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

I think Holland is now 33% Muslim... from almost 0% when I was born I could be wrong though...
But...it does show the migrant movement and demographics....\


Edit...OK.. way out 6 % from one site. 10% from another. and varied from 5-15% from others.. . I retract the 33% as I cannot recall the source.... it is arse gravy....

But... the demographics of each of our countries is changing.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 26th January 23:10

[Zod]

Troubleatmill said:

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

I think Holland is now 33% Muslim... from almost 0% when I was born I could be wrong though...
But...it does show the migrant movement and demographics....

33%? Try 5%

[Troubleatmill]

Zod said:

Troubleatmill said:

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

I think Holland is now 33% Muslim... from almost 0% when I was born I could be wrong though...
But...it does show the migrant movement and demographics....

33%? Try 5%

Agreed. See my edited post above..
I found stats from 4-15%... Range is too wide... it is arse gravy... and I cannot find the source I originally found at 33%... So it is retracted..

[WinstonWolf]

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

Racist

Where did I say it was going to be imposed? What I *actually* said is the English don't want it.

Reading, I take it you were in remedial classes?

[Smiler.]

The usual tripe from the "ooh look, you're racist" sect.

There's no place for Sharia anything in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

[Zod]

WinstonWolf said:

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

Racist

Where did I say it was going to be imposed? What I *actually* said is the English don't want it.

Reading, I take it you were in remedial classes?

Yes, racist or stupid a which is it?

What is the point of saying that the English don't want it? There is no question of our getting it,

[Zod]

Smiler. said:

The usual tripe from the "ooh look, you're racist" sect.

There's no place for Sharia anything in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

Why do you care how Muslims regulate their dealings with one another so long as Sharia does not have precedence over English law?

Other religions are subject to their own laws.

[WinstonWolf]

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

Zod said:

WinstonWolf said:

rscott said:

Please don't presume to speak on behalf of other English people (like myself).
I have no problem at all with some aspects of Sharia law - for example where Muslim weddings are concerned. Other parts of it are worrying and their use monitored/stopped where they are incompatible with the British legal system.

Other religions are allowed to practice their own law in the UK under these circumstances ( Jewish court, etc) so why not Muslims?

I forgot, there probably is a tiny minority of English people who would accept Sharia in England I've just never encountered one of them in real life.

You persist with this utterly false premise that Sharia is going to be imposed on us all. It ain't ever and you are either stupid or a racist troll to suggest that it could.

Racist

Where did I say it was going to be imposed? What I *actually* said is the English don't want it.

Reading, I take it you were in remedial classes?

Yes, racist or stupid a which is it?

What is the point of saying that the English don't want it? There is no question of our getting it,

Stupid would be confusing a religion and race...

[velocgee]

triggerh4ppy said:

Prophet Ibrahim/Abraham : Stop Idolaters
Prophet Lut/Lot : Stop Sodomy and other homo stuff
Prophet Nuh/Noah : Stop being tts (Generally stop murdering and thieving)
Prophet Hud : Stop idolaters again and elitism
Prophets Jacob/Yakub and Yusuf/Joseph : Stop jealousy/envy
Prophet Moses/Musa: Stop dude with a God complex oppressing people
Plus many more...

Remember these people are believed to be the best of mankind, they spread the message and then explained the consequences to people. We are taught that these are our role-models. They didn't go around kidnapping people and then chopping each others fricken heads off. How anyone can read the WHOLE Quran/Bible and then come to that conclusion somehow I have no idea.

Edited by triggerh4ppy on Monday 21st December 09:36

Hmmm.......Not sure if this has already been highlighted, but I don't see a mention of Jesus Christ.

Case in point and comes as no surprise, really.

Integrated British values! Yeah, whatever.....

Edited by velocgee on Wednesday 27th January 10:52

[Smiler.]

Zod said:

Smiler. said:

The usual tripe from the "ooh look, you're racist" sect.

There's no place for Sharia anything in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

Why do you care how Muslims regulate their dealings with one another so long as Sharia does not have precedence over English law?

Other religions are subject to their own laws.

You may be happy about the two-tier system growing in the UK & the inevitable divisiveness it brings.

I'm not.

[GT03ROB]

velocgee said:

triggerh4ppy said:

Prophet Ibrahim/Abraham : Stop Idolaters
Prophet Lut/Lot : Stop Sodomy and other homo stuff
Prophet Nuh/Noah : Stop being tts (Generally stop murdering and thieving)
Prophet Hud : Stop idolaters again and elitism
Prophets Jacob/Yakub and Yusuf/Joseph : Stop jealousy/envy
Prophet Moses/Musa: Stop dude with a God complex oppressing people
Plus many more...

Remember these people are believed to be the best of mankind, they spread the message and then explained the consequences to people. We are taught that these are our role-models. They didn't go around kidnapping people and then chopping each others fricken heads off. How anyone can read the WHOLE Quran/Bible and then come to that conclusion somehow I have no idea.

Edited by triggerh4ppy on Monday 21st December 09:36

Hmmm.......Not sure if this has been mentioned I don't see Jesus Christ mentioned here.

Case in point and comes as no surprise, really. Integrated Britain! Yeah, whatever.

Not sure of your point but for completeness one could add the prophet Isa / Jesus son of Mary if it helps ......

[Zod]

Smiler. said:

Zod said:

Smiler. said:

The usual tripe from the "ooh look, you're racist" sect.

There's no place for Sharia anything in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

Why do you care how Muslims regulate their dealings with one another so long as Sharia does not have precedence over English law?

Other religions are subject to their own laws.

You may be happy about the two-tier system growing in the UK & the inevitable divisiveness it brings.

I'm not.

I don't like the divisions in society and feel strongly that they must be addressed, including by such measures as ensuring that women speak English, but interfering in traditional beliefs and the rules associated with them where they do not conflict with, or attempt to supersede, English law, is bound to increase resentment.

Edited by Zod on Wednesday 27th January 12:31

[KrissKross]

Zod said:

is bound to increase resentment.

It already does increase resentment, standing in a shopping queue with people dressed in a strange way and speaking a foreign language makes people naturally feel anxious. As this grows to the point where you are the minority in your home town anxiety starts to turn to anger, being backed into a corner what do you then think will eventually happen, peace & tranquillity?

[Zod]

KrissKross said:

Zod said:

is bound to increase resentment.

It already does increase resentment, standing in a shopping queue with people dressed in a strange way and speaking a foreign language makes people naturally feel anxious. As this grows to the point where you are the minority in your home town anxiety starts to turn to anger, being backed into a corner what do you then think will eventually happen, peace & tranquillity?

No white Englshmab is a minority in his hometown, even in Bradford. In Some blocks of streets in Girlibgton perhaps, but not in the city.

[scenario8]

Zod said:

o white Englshmab is a minority in his hometown, even in Bradford. In Some blocks of streets in Girlibgton perhaps, but not in the city.

Girlibgton? Sounds foreign to me.

[Zod]

scenario8 said:

Zod said:

o white Englshmab is a minority in his hometown, even in Bradford. In Some blocks of streets in Girlibgton perhaps, but not in the city.

Girlibgton? Sounds foreign to me.

No worse than Girlington, believe me! My Dad grew up there.

[Ean218]

Zod said:

KrissKross said:

It already does increase resentment, standing in a shopping queue with people dressed in a strange way and speaking a foreign language makes people naturally feel anxious. As this grows to the point where you are the minority in your home town anxiety starts to turn to anger, being backed into a corner what do you then think will eventually happen, peace & tranquillity?

No white Englshmab is a minority in his hometown, even in Bradford. In Some blocks of streets in Girlibgton perhaps, but not in the city.

Not whithstanding that the poster stated that this was a growing problem rather than the current situation, you may be interested to know that the 2011 census for London stated that very thing. Our capital city is already < 50% White English.....

8,173,941 Total Population
3,669,284 White English