Moderate Muslims
Discussion
Sam All said:
TTwiggy said:
I'll stop when you stop turning this forum into a one-man crusade.
The ball ,the ball.AJS, you are just f
king relentless in your pursuit about the truth of muslims.
A serious question:
Why are you devoting so much time relentlessly pursuing this subject on a motoring forum? What are you hoping to achieve?
Or is it not just PH, and are you doing it everywhere?
None of those are rhetorical questions as they might seem but I am genuinely confused about your obsession and how you see yourself.
king relentless in your pursuit about the truth of muslims.A serious question:
Why are you devoting so much time relentlessly pursuing this subject on a motoring forum? What are you hoping to achieve?
Or is it not just PH, and are you doing it everywhere?
None of those are rhetorical questions as they might seem but I am genuinely confused about your obsession and how you see yourself.
I know loads of Muslims and am dating one. I don't even notice they are Muslim, they're just people, friends, girlfriends, workmates, teammates etc. Those of you who are scared of people just because they happen to support a specific religion should really get out of your bedrooms and go and meet some. You might be surprised.
Triger
Any sites you would recommend as an alternative to Wikipedia. I find Quran.com very well laid out but obviously only the original text.
So is it purely random lunatics? Why do they keep interpreting Islam particularly in this way? Why don't we have random Sikh, Hindu and Buddhist lunatics also misinterpreting their religion in this way?
And yes I know there was a major Sikh terrorist campaign for a period of time but it never seemed to be demanding a Sikh caliphate or its equivalent.
Allnighter
As I understand it the Koran is eternal and the commands within it are not dependent upon exactly when they were revealed. So although he may have received them at a time when they were directly applicable they are not specific to that time and place.
Regarding my perceptions of Islam you're not entirely wrong.
Drawing very heavily on Robert Spencer, though I am aware of his Syrian Christian heritage and Eastern Orthodox beliefs. I know he has made some mistakes and wouldn't put a bit of showmanship and hubris past him, but if you insist that I am parroting some beliefs then those should be your starting point.
I have also read Bernard Lewis at length. An incredible historian by any standard. I have listened to many debates and lectures by Dr Zuhdi Jasser and what I can of Maajid Nawaz. I have read much on Wikipedia and while aware of its flaws I have dug deeper into original sources where possible. I habe otherwise dived into history and theology as and when and tried to look at multiple sources and recognise the bias.
Similarly on religious texts, I was given a copy of the koran by a Muslim friend many years ago. I set out to read it cover to cover and failed miserably.
I don't claim to know everything about Islam for one minute. The more I learn the more I become aware of what I don't know and Triggers admirably patient posts have already illuminated new areas I must read more about.
I most certainly do not think Christianity is beyond reproach. My formative atheist years were spent laughing hysterically at the creation story and the idea that all thinga are guided by some ethereal tyrant who cares not a jot for millions of people born to poverty, misery and death who finds the time to worry about what consenting adults do in the privacy of theirbown bedroom.
I do think Christianity has evolved to be a relatively benign cultural backdrop to basically harmonious and tolerant societies.
I am also aware that being brought up vaguely Christian has given me some innate bias in this matter. I account for it where I can be make no claim to be perfectly objective. My true thoughts are what I post and despite how it may sometimes seem are more questions than answers.
And a very merry Christmas to you too.
Voldemort and Bob
Which race am I ist?
May the new year bring you an original thought.
Alpine
I am sorry if it feels that way to you. There are plebty of threads I haven't even contributed to here. Plenty not about Islam. And to the best of my memory it's the first I've started in a couple of months.
I find it a fascinating subject from a historical POV and I believe it will be one of the defining struggles of the coming decades. So worth talking about.
Merry Christmas.
Rscott
I did. Plenty of questions there. They damn ISIS. Are they in favour of secular laws? Are they against hudud always and everywhere? I havr more to write on this tomorrow.
Pork
Why would you take the trouble to write that without bothering to point out what it is I have actually said which you deem idiotic?
Zod
I hope it does expose my scant understanding of Islam. And I hope it continues to point towards areas I could learn more about as Trigger's posts have so far done.
BSR
I see it as one of the definitive issues of the age. And it's also one I find very interesting.
I really don't know why the vitriol is necessary from anyone. Is the whole topic somehow out of bounds? According to who? Since when? And why? It might seem odd that I am so interested in itm maybe it is.
Merry Christmas, holidays and new year to everyone.
Any sites you would recommend as an alternative to Wikipedia. I find Quran.com very well laid out but obviously only the original text.
So is it purely random lunatics? Why do they keep interpreting Islam particularly in this way? Why don't we have random Sikh, Hindu and Buddhist lunatics also misinterpreting their religion in this way?
And yes I know there was a major Sikh terrorist campaign for a period of time but it never seemed to be demanding a Sikh caliphate or its equivalent.
Allnighter
As I understand it the Koran is eternal and the commands within it are not dependent upon exactly when they were revealed. So although he may have received them at a time when they were directly applicable they are not specific to that time and place.
Regarding my perceptions of Islam you're not entirely wrong.
Drawing very heavily on Robert Spencer, though I am aware of his Syrian Christian heritage and Eastern Orthodox beliefs. I know he has made some mistakes and wouldn't put a bit of showmanship and hubris past him, but if you insist that I am parroting some beliefs then those should be your starting point.
I have also read Bernard Lewis at length. An incredible historian by any standard. I have listened to many debates and lectures by Dr Zuhdi Jasser and what I can of Maajid Nawaz. I have read much on Wikipedia and while aware of its flaws I have dug deeper into original sources where possible. I habe otherwise dived into history and theology as and when and tried to look at multiple sources and recognise the bias.
Similarly on religious texts, I was given a copy of the koran by a Muslim friend many years ago. I set out to read it cover to cover and failed miserably.
I don't claim to know everything about Islam for one minute. The more I learn the more I become aware of what I don't know and Triggers admirably patient posts have already illuminated new areas I must read more about.
I most certainly do not think Christianity is beyond reproach. My formative atheist years were spent laughing hysterically at the creation story and the idea that all thinga are guided by some ethereal tyrant who cares not a jot for millions of people born to poverty, misery and death who finds the time to worry about what consenting adults do in the privacy of theirbown bedroom.
I do think Christianity has evolved to be a relatively benign cultural backdrop to basically harmonious and tolerant societies.
I am also aware that being brought up vaguely Christian has given me some innate bias in this matter. I account for it where I can be make no claim to be perfectly objective. My true thoughts are what I post and despite how it may sometimes seem are more questions than answers.
And a very merry Christmas to you too.
Voldemort and Bob
Which race am I ist?
May the new year bring you an original thought.
Alpine
I am sorry if it feels that way to you. There are plebty of threads I haven't even contributed to here. Plenty not about Islam. And to the best of my memory it's the first I've started in a couple of months.
I find it a fascinating subject from a historical POV and I believe it will be one of the defining struggles of the coming decades. So worth talking about.
Merry Christmas.
Rscott
I did. Plenty of questions there. They damn ISIS. Are they in favour of secular laws? Are they against hudud always and everywhere? I havr more to write on this tomorrow.
Pork
Why would you take the trouble to write that without bothering to point out what it is I have actually said which you deem idiotic?
Zod
I hope it does expose my scant understanding of Islam. And I hope it continues to point towards areas I could learn more about as Trigger's posts have so far done.
BSR
I see it as one of the definitive issues of the age. And it's also one I find very interesting.
I really don't know why the vitriol is necessary from anyone. Is the whole topic somehow out of bounds? According to who? Since when? And why? It might seem odd that I am so interested in itm maybe it is.
Merry Christmas, holidays and new year to everyone.
You can't get much more "Moderate" than this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Refusing to be separated from the Christians to protect them.
"Kill them together or leave them alone".
That's amazing frankly, should be much bigger news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Refusing to be separated from the Christians to protect them.
"Kill them together or leave them alone".
That's amazing frankly, should be much bigger news.
br d said:
You can't get much more "Moderate" than this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Refusing to be separated from the Christians to protect them.
"Kill them together or leave them alone".
That's amazing frankly, should be much bigger news.
+1http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Refusing to be separated from the Christians to protect them.
"Kill them together or leave them alone".
That's amazing frankly, should be much bigger news.
That will certainly help relations
As I've said on other threads, I'm White British, but my wife is a Se Asian Muslim, and a Koranic Scholar who teaches the Koran,
And again as I've said she like most Christians she rejects the bits of her book that relate to sodomy etc.
Interesting this morning I had three 'Christmas' cards. One from my very Islamic Employer, (one of the largest Islamic companies in the world) wishing me a Merry Christmas, and two for UK suppliers wishing me a 'Seasons Greetings', stop analyzing your navels and just accept that most find ways to reject extremism, look at some of the things we do/allow (e.g changing to seasons greetings) build bridges where we can, but stand up for our rights and stop pushing them toward extremism by attempting to group them all together, and questioning those that are moderate. We need to divide and defeat not lumping them together.
The sooner Europe realizes this is a racial problem and deals with it as such the sooner we will get a conclusion.
the largest Muslim population in the world is Indonesia, but they have less people in Syria than the UK, why? maybe its not all a Muslim problem.
And again as I've said she like most Christians she rejects the bits of her book that relate to sodomy etc.
Interesting this morning I had three 'Christmas' cards. One from my very Islamic Employer, (one of the largest Islamic companies in the world) wishing me a Merry Christmas, and two for UK suppliers wishing me a 'Seasons Greetings', stop analyzing your navels and just accept that most find ways to reject extremism, look at some of the things we do/allow (e.g changing to seasons greetings) build bridges where we can, but stand up for our rights and stop pushing them toward extremism by attempting to group them all together, and questioning those that are moderate. We need to divide and defeat not lumping them together.
The sooner Europe realizes this is a racial problem and deals with it as such the sooner we will get a conclusion.
the largest Muslim population in the world is Indonesia, but they have less people in Syria than the UK, why? maybe its not all a Muslim problem.
Right,
Regarding to letter to al-Baghdadi, I don't find much encouraging here. The thrust of it seems to be they don't have much of a problem with what IS are doing, but rather how they're doing it. For example they don't reject the notion of a caliphate but make the claim that it requires universal consent of all Muslims. The very beginnings of the religion saw the split between the Sunni and Shia, deriving straight from a disagreement over who was the rightful successor to Mohammed. By this definition there was never any rightful Caliph. This is perhaps a Quranist viewpoint but certainly doesn't appear to be a mainstream one. It might be nice if this could become the case as it would enable large chunks of Islamic jurisprudence to be thrown out.
Why couldn't they simply say that they believe religion should be a private matter for individuals, not a matter for the state? If they in any way believe this.
Regarding hudud, they simply seem to be stating that you need to follow the correct procedures before stoning or beheading someone. As a non-Muslim I find it very easy to say that no procedures or standards of proof make stoning someone to death acceptable. Most Muslim countries don't actually act on this punishment. Why couldn't these 24 scholars have taken the opportunity to simply say it's now 2015 and we don't stone people to death because it's cruel and barbaric?
I don't believe those Islamic scholars actually think any such thing. They rightly reject IS's means of achieving an Islamic caliphate, but they don't reject the end itself.
Even that is fine in itself, believe what you want. My point is from a western perspective isn't it a good idea to be aware of the difference before deciding someone is a moderate?
It's not just some bizarre dispute in my head either. In 2013 David Cameron was all for bombing Assad and supporting the insurgency there. Now he has done a complete about turn and appears to want to support Assad. He claims there are an army of 70,000 moderates waiting for our help but how exactly are we identifying these moderates? What have we changed in the last couple of years to better enable us to do this?
Trigger
I am still struggling to find any definition of 'Children of Israel' which includes Mohammed. All seem to mean it only as the descendents of Jacob.
Voldemort
Even if I am racist (somehow, against some unspecified race) does that make me wrong?
Pork
No *you're* an idiot.
Berw
Why should attempting to understand and discuss Islam push Muslims towards extremism?
Regarding to letter to al-Baghdadi, I don't find much encouraging here. The thrust of it seems to be they don't have much of a problem with what IS are doing, but rather how they're doing it. For example they don't reject the notion of a caliphate but make the claim that it requires universal consent of all Muslims. The very beginnings of the religion saw the split between the Sunni and Shia, deriving straight from a disagreement over who was the rightful successor to Mohammed. By this definition there was never any rightful Caliph. This is perhaps a Quranist viewpoint but certainly doesn't appear to be a mainstream one. It might be nice if this could become the case as it would enable large chunks of Islamic jurisprudence to be thrown out.
Why couldn't they simply say that they believe religion should be a private matter for individuals, not a matter for the state? If they in any way believe this.
Regarding hudud, they simply seem to be stating that you need to follow the correct procedures before stoning or beheading someone. As a non-Muslim I find it very easy to say that no procedures or standards of proof make stoning someone to death acceptable. Most Muslim countries don't actually act on this punishment. Why couldn't these 24 scholars have taken the opportunity to simply say it's now 2015 and we don't stone people to death because it's cruel and barbaric?
I don't believe those Islamic scholars actually think any such thing. They rightly reject IS's means of achieving an Islamic caliphate, but they don't reject the end itself.
Even that is fine in itself, believe what you want. My point is from a western perspective isn't it a good idea to be aware of the difference before deciding someone is a moderate?
It's not just some bizarre dispute in my head either. In 2013 David Cameron was all for bombing Assad and supporting the insurgency there. Now he has done a complete about turn and appears to want to support Assad. He claims there are an army of 70,000 moderates waiting for our help but how exactly are we identifying these moderates? What have we changed in the last couple of years to better enable us to do this?
Trigger
I am still struggling to find any definition of 'Children of Israel' which includes Mohammed. All seem to mean it only as the descendents of Jacob.
Voldemort
Even if I am racist (somehow, against some unspecified race) does that make me wrong?
Pork
No *you're* an idiot.
Berw
Why should attempting to understand and discuss Islam push Muslims towards extremism?
There is as strong tendency amongst some bone headed atheists to try to tell religious people how they ought to interpret their own scripture. "I think this stuff is obviously untenable claptrap. You have got to read it the same way as me, because I say so. Therefore what you believe is untenable claptrap." It's an absurd and wholly irrational line of argument.
If you want to know what someone believes, ask them and then listen.
If you want to know what someone believes, ask them and then listen.
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