Moderate Muslims
Discussion
As far as I can tell from a quick google there are about 1,500 mosques in Britain, plus prayer rooms and community centres. I'm sure there are better uses for an extra 2,000 police officers than having them standing around outside these things looking for signs of extremism, whatever they may be.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
CCTV presents the same problem - who is going to monitor all this and know what to look for in English, Arabic, Urdu and whatever else?
Troubleatmill is right IMO, we need a cultural shift. We need one on both sides.
It would be great to see a more robust rejection of political Islam from Muslims, and a mainstream Islam develop which is committed to living peacefully as equals with people of other faiths on a permanent basis. The reality is that's completely incompatible with any mainstream interpretation or tradition of Islam that I know of, and only really happens when people don't take it very seriously at all. Having a religion which is ok if you don't really take it seriously doesn't seem like much of a long term answer.
Ditto Muslim governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran who might reject ISIS, but that's not because they feel ISIS are a bit over the top. They feel that an Islamic Caliphate threatens their authority as many Muslims will feel loyal to the Caliphate first.
As for those who still insist that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and all the evidence to the contrary is somehow fabricated or twisted or taken out of context, I can only suggest they spend a bit more time convincing the jihadists of this before trying to convince the media and the non-Muslims.
Change can come from the Islamic world itself but it will be slow and hard fought.
From a western policy perspective we need to recognise Islam for what it is. A very aggressive political-religious doctrine which seeks supremacy by any means. Acknowledging this would already give you a hugely different approach to things like the Syrian civil war, the migrant crisis and terrorist attacks; and also make us much more cautious with which advocacy groups politicians listen to and even give funding to. And let's drop completely the ridiculous political correctness which seeks to shut down any debate or silence criticism as racist or bigoted.
How this might work out is an open ended question, but a few ideas:
Encourage genuine reform movements. Offer sanctuary to apostates and non-Muslims fleeing religious persecution. End foreign funding for mosques. Close down radical mosques and refuse entry to radical preachers. Vigorously defend free speech and condemn all violence without qualifying it by pandering to bizarre superstitions or calling for 'respect' for religion.
For those who, like Anjem Choudary, openly say that they would like to live under Sharia, I would love to have some scheme where they could give up British citizenship and go and do just that. Dump them somewhere like Yemen or Sudan and forget about them.
I would also like to throw out the notion that any criticism or hostility to radical Islam is likely to alienate moderate Muslims and drive them to radicalism. This is both logically absurd and patronising. If someone's response to criticism, insult or mocking of their religion is violence then they can not live in a country with free speech and robust political discourse. They are the problem. It is also downright dangerous as it lends a legitimacy to using violence as a response to offence, which is profoundly at odds with a civilised society. There's no special exception for Islam in this. This principle is not somehow suspended for certain cartoons or novels which cause offence to Muslims.
Similarly, if the police are going around looking for a group of white guys who have been burgling, and they stop me as a white guy, well that's life. I'm not a burglar and I want burglars to be caught and locked up, so I will cooperate. I might be a bit irritated but I'm not going to go and become a burglar, or fail to report a burglary. Or go lurking around housing estates at night looking like a burglar then crying racism when I am stopped. If they're looking for Islamic terrorists and they stop a Muslim - well that's their job. Frustration is surely better directed at the people blowing things up, and the people covering for them, than at the police and the 'Islamophobia' of the evil west.
Muslims who live in western democracies and have the same rights as everyone else also have the same duties as everyone else.
Troubleatmill said:
Which brings us back to, this is an issue that only the Muslim community can resolve.
They are in the Mosque's week in, week out.
What is needed is that the Muslim community recognise that there is a problem ( and with increased immigration from cultures that are less enlightened than Indonesia ) it is an ongoing problem... and needs to have an ongoing education that the norms that those people knew... is just not acceptable.
You may just have a problem with this idea in Berry Park, Luton;They are in the Mosque's week in, week out.
What is needed is that the Muslim community recognise that there is a problem ( and with increased immigration from cultures that are less enlightened than Indonesia ) it is an ongoing problem... and needs to have an ongoing education that the norms that those people knew... is just not acceptable.
I used to live there :-(
Phil
Alpinestars said:
don4l said:
You don't come across as being proud to be British.
In fact, you seem to have a problem with the English.
Do you want to point out where I've said that or even alluded to it. In fact, you seem to have a problem with the English.
Clutching at straws comes to mind.
Interesting news item - not sure if already covered in another thread (if so apologies)...
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/i...
- expect all the usual feminist warriors to rail against this un-pardonable violence against defenceless young girls and start marching through London...
I'm not sure when the first such case was 'discovered' in the UK, but at these levels it's getting to the point that someone has to take action. Or not.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/i...
- expect all the usual feminist warriors to rail against this un-pardonable violence against defenceless young girls and start marching through London...
I'm not sure when the first such case was 'discovered' in the UK, but at these levels it's getting to the point that someone has to take action. Or not.
The Don of Croy said:
Interesting news item - not sure if already covered in another thread (if so apologies)...
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/i...
- expect all the usual feminist warriors to rail against this un-pardonable violence against defenceless young girls and start marching through London...
I'm not sure when the first such case was 'discovered' in the UK, but at these levels it's getting to the point that someone has to take action. Or not.
Been mentioned many times on here (if not this thread, one of the many other similar ones). FGM is a major problem - no one doubts that - but it's not specific to a particular religion. It's most common in some African countries, a mix of both Christian and Muslim countries..http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/i...
- expect all the usual feminist warriors to rail against this un-pardonable violence against defenceless young girls and start marching through London...
I'm not sure when the first such case was 'discovered' in the UK, but at these levels it's getting to the point that someone has to take action. Or not.
WinstonWolf said:
Alpinestars said:
don4l said:
You don't come across as being proud to be British.
In fact, you seem to have a problem with the English.
Do you want to point out where I've said that or even alluded to it. In fact, you seem to have a problem with the English.
Clutching at straws comes to mind.
rscott said:
Been mentioned many times on here (if not this thread, one of the many other similar ones). FGM is a major problem - no one doubts that - but it's not specific to a particular religion. It's most common in some African countries, a mix of both Christian and Muslim countries..
Not quite true.Although it is almost certainly not Islamic in origin (nor is stoning) it was taken up with enthusiasm as something highly desirable, though not obligatory (except for the Shafi'i school of Sunni Islam, where it is obligatory).
It also appears that it spread to Malaysia and Indonesia with Islam as there is no known tradition of it in the region previously or in Hinduism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_f...
WinstonWolf said:
In nearly every post you make. If I had one word to sum up how you come across to others it would be 'traitorous'.
I am happy to be called traitorous if that means traitorous to your views. As an Englishman, I exercise my right to free speech, especially against what I see as bigoted. Do you want to close that right to free speech because it's contrary to your views? Who am I traitorous to?Tsubaki said:
Genuine questions for triggerh4ppy, as you seem like a moderate muslim….
I know the muslim calendar differs somewhat from the Christian one, but how old is the earth according to your beliefs?
After having watched the interesting Attenborough documentary about the discovery of a largest, so far, dinosaur, dated at 1001.6 million years old, what are the muslim thoughts and beliefs regarding evolution?
I have not been back to this thread for a while, but so that someone asked me something. Apologies for not getting back sooner.I know the muslim calendar differs somewhat from the Christian one, but how old is the earth according to your beliefs?
After having watched the interesting Attenborough documentary about the discovery of a largest, so far, dinosaur, dated at 1001.6 million years old, what are the muslim thoughts and beliefs regarding evolution?
Very old.... Islam mentions the creation of Adam and Eve just as in christianity/judaism. Dinosaurs are not mentioned nor ruled out. There is some mention of life of some sort before human but this is not very specific and it was wiped out before Adam/Eve were created.
Human evolution is widely regarded as not true by most muslims. Animal/plant evolution is agreed upon. Although there is some debate to this recently. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/20...
Countdown said:
WinstonWolf said:
Alpinestars said:
don4l said:
You don't come across as being proud to be British.
In fact, you seem to have a problem with the English.
Do you want to point out where I've said that or even alluded to it. In fact, you seem to have a problem with the English.
Clutching at straws comes to mind.
Alpinestars said:
WinstonWolf said:
In nearly every post you make. If I had one word to sum up how you come across to others it would be 'traitorous'.
I am happy to be called traitorous if that means traitorous to your views. As an Englishman, I exercise my right to free speech, especially against what I see as bigoted. Do you want to close that right to free speech because it's contrary to your views? Who am I traitorous to?Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
ahttps://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
holes will be aholes...digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
I'd be keen to hear the other side of the story and Jon's other posts on Facebook make his political leanings quite clear.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
IIIRestorerIII said:
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
I'd be keen to hear the other side of the story and Jon's other posts on Facebook make his political leanings quite clear.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
TTwiggy said:
IIIRestorerIII said:
digimeistter said:
Excuse the FB link but this popped up on my feed today
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
I'd be keen to hear the other side of the story and Jon's other posts on Facebook make his political leanings quite clear.https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2036049866...
They're not doing themselves any favours.
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