Moderate Muslims
Discussion
Sorry I didn't get a chance to reply last night.
They will be the ones shouting death to the west and justifying killing innocent people... I dont know how else you could tell. How can you tell if the looney staring at you on the bus isn't thinking he wants to peel your skin and wear it as his new coat at the next bus stop?
I dont know why.. recently Islam seems to be being used by people for their own personal benefit. Look at Baghdadi for instance (wtf is with his name, it doesnt even sound muslim, Is it a coincidence hes from Iraq? Its like calling someone Al-Londoney), If he was a man on his own trying to get oil money, sex slaves or whatever he is after he would have no chance. If he starts shouting that god wants them to do it and they will be no consequences for people you will get like minded evil lunatics wanting to join and reek the benefits without any of the disadvantages. You could trap gullible uneducated people (Cant read quran or anything, take religion only from word of mouth from imams, there is a lot of people like this in that part of the world) by saying this is what god wanted and once they have realized its wrong its either too late or they are now more interested in their own desires/benefits. Its made easier for them to recruit when their familes/colleagues are being murdered/bombed by "the infidels" and they are able to point the finger to the west and say it was because of them and we want to get them back. think about how much this has blown up (mind the pun) since the we invaded Afghanistan. This way he is spouting this crap and getting people to do what he wants for his own benefit. (e.g. bit like this man http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-347988..., who I actually thought was a woman until I read the article.)
Sikh lunatics? See this is the problem I could give you examples of people who call themselves sikh and terrorise but they are not really sikhs are they? Sikhism is a peaceful religion as I am aware. But google the term "Khalistan Liberation force". They wanted to set up their own country and were happy to terrorize to get it. Believe it or not I still know some guys who are supporters of this movement.I wouldn't call these guys Sikh though, as they are not following their religion, just using it as a recruitment tool.
Buddhism? Again Buddhism is a peaceful religion but then you get these guys who have started the "ethnic cleansing" of muslims in Rohingya. They call themselves Buddhists but that is not following the buddhist religion is it? Their just Loonies.
Hindus?, I dont know much about this religion and its teachings. But have a read into the "bajrang dhal" training camp.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/the-mirror-exp... Again more loonies.
These religions/people dont get the air time on western media as they are not as big. They are not being fueled by the west bombing their innocents and stealing their resources(or whatever is going on in Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq), so they dont have the recruitment tools the ISIS/ISIL bellends have.
AJS - Just for the sanity of the other users if you let me know where you live I will find you the address of a local mosque/imam for you to go to. i will even phone up in advance and let them know you are coming so they will make sure they have time for you. Take a list of all your unanswered questions and hopefully that will help you. Although I am currently trying to answer what I can I think an Imam will be able to go through the detail and reasons with a much better understanding.
AJS- said:
Trigger
Interesting. So all descendants of Abraham are Children of Israel?
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
Yes.Interesting. So all descendants of Abraham are Children of Israel?
Regarding them not being Muslims, back to the original question then how do you tell the difference before they actually commit acts of terror?
They will be the ones shouting death to the west and justifying killing innocent people... I dont know how else you could tell. How can you tell if the looney staring at you on the bus isn't thinking he wants to peel your skin and wear it as his new coat at the next bus stop?
AJS- said:
Any sites you would recommend as an alternative to Wikipedia. I find Quran.com very well laid out but obviously only the original text.
So is it purely random lunatics? Why do they keep interpreting Islam particularly in this way? Why don't we have random Sikh, Hindu and Buddhist lunatics also misinterpreting their religion in this way?
And yes I know there was a major Sikh terrorist campaign for a period of time but it never seemed to be demanding a Sikh caliphate or its equivalent.
I wouldnt recommend any website I think you need to go talk to a scholar/imam. The internet is a messy place where anyone with an opinion brainfarts all over without actually having real evidence. Not having enough of a background you would not now how to filter the information correctly, no offence intended.So is it purely random lunatics? Why do they keep interpreting Islam particularly in this way? Why don't we have random Sikh, Hindu and Buddhist lunatics also misinterpreting their religion in this way?
And yes I know there was a major Sikh terrorist campaign for a period of time but it never seemed to be demanding a Sikh caliphate or its equivalent.
I dont know why.. recently Islam seems to be being used by people for their own personal benefit. Look at Baghdadi for instance (wtf is with his name, it doesnt even sound muslim, Is it a coincidence hes from Iraq? Its like calling someone Al-Londoney), If he was a man on his own trying to get oil money, sex slaves or whatever he is after he would have no chance. If he starts shouting that god wants them to do it and they will be no consequences for people you will get like minded evil lunatics wanting to join and reek the benefits without any of the disadvantages. You could trap gullible uneducated people (Cant read quran or anything, take religion only from word of mouth from imams, there is a lot of people like this in that part of the world) by saying this is what god wanted and once they have realized its wrong its either too late or they are now more interested in their own desires/benefits. Its made easier for them to recruit when their familes/colleagues are being murdered/bombed by "the infidels" and they are able to point the finger to the west and say it was because of them and we want to get them back. think about how much this has blown up (mind the pun) since the we invaded Afghanistan. This way he is spouting this crap and getting people to do what he wants for his own benefit. (e.g. bit like this man http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-347988..., who I actually thought was a woman until I read the article.)
Sikh lunatics? See this is the problem I could give you examples of people who call themselves sikh and terrorise but they are not really sikhs are they? Sikhism is a peaceful religion as I am aware. But google the term "Khalistan Liberation force". They wanted to set up their own country and were happy to terrorize to get it. Believe it or not I still know some guys who are supporters of this movement.I wouldn't call these guys Sikh though, as they are not following their religion, just using it as a recruitment tool.
Buddhism? Again Buddhism is a peaceful religion but then you get these guys who have started the "ethnic cleansing" of muslims in Rohingya. They call themselves Buddhists but that is not following the buddhist religion is it? Their just Loonies.
Hindus?, I dont know much about this religion and its teachings. But have a read into the "bajrang dhal" training camp.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/the-mirror-exp... Again more loonies.
These religions/people dont get the air time on western media as they are not as big. They are not being fueled by the west bombing their innocents and stealing their resources(or whatever is going on in Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq), so they dont have the recruitment tools the ISIS/ISIL bellends have.
br d said:
You can't get much more "Moderate" than this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Refusing to be separated from the Christians to protect them.
"Kill them together or leave them alone".
That's amazing frankly, should be much bigger news.
Terror and scaremongering unfortunately sells more papers. Telling you the brown beardy next door may want to kill you gives a better read for the british/american public. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Refusing to be separated from the Christians to protect them.
"Kill them together or leave them alone".
That's amazing frankly, should be much bigger news.
AJS - Just for the sanity of the other users if you let me know where you live I will find you the address of a local mosque/imam for you to go to. i will even phone up in advance and let them know you are coming so they will make sure they have time for you. Take a list of all your unanswered questions and hopefully that will help you. Although I am currently trying to answer what I can I think an Imam will be able to go through the detail and reasons with a much better understanding.
triggerh4ppy said:
Liokault said:
Then ask someone else of the same religion and get a totally contradictory answer.
Unless its something fundamental like killing other people... St Augustine, "Except when ... "
triggerh4ppy said:
AJS - Just for the sanity of the other users if you let me know where you live I will find you the address of a local mosque/imam for you to go to. i will even phone up in advance and let them know you are coming so they will make sure they have time for you. Take a list of all your unanswered questions and hopefully that will help you. Although I am currently trying to answer what I can I think an Imam will be able to go through the detail and reasons with a much better understanding.
I'll certainly look forward to him taking you up on that offer.Thank you
triggerh4ppy said:
pork911 said:
keep digging
After finding your username amusing, I have just realised how inappropriate my username may seem. I just want everyone to be assured that it was the Dom Joly sketch show which inspired it and the numerous years at a training camp have nothing to do with it 
Pork
What sort of response do you expect to simply saying everything I write is idiotic?
Trigger
From an outsider's perspective I would say that anyone who can say they are happy to live under secular laws as equals with people of other faiths or none, and anyone who would unequivocally say that there is no place for hudud punishments in the modern world is probably not a problem. This seems to be something than many self-described moderates have a problem with, and it is something that seems to be in conflict with the traditional understandings of Islam.
No offence taken, my understanding of Islam is limited but hopefully improving.
Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi gave himself that name. No doubt he is a proper lunatic, but I find it hard to believe his interpretation is entirely arbitrary and made up. It seems to fit too well with the core texts and it seems so attractive to many Muslims who go to join it. That's not to say they are living entirely by the core texts, they obviously skipped the bit about no compulsion in religion, and reject what I understand to be a direct command of treating the Yazidi as 'People of the Book' but none the less well founded in Islamic texts and history.
And it's not just IS. There are jihadist groups in Thailand, Nigeria, Somalia and many other places besides saying very similar things. They may all be doing an element of cherry picking and interpreting in their own way, but even if this is so it seems persistent enough to think that the texts and teachings lend themselves to this.
I similarly don't know a great deal about Hinduism. I know they had the awful custom of Suti, which I understand is all but gone save for a few incidents in remote areas.
I know a little about Sikhism and it seems to have an emphasis on equality and freedom o conscience at its core. Something I can't say for what I know of Islam.
I am married to a Buddhist so know a little more of that. I would say it tends to instill a sort of passivity and feeling of powerlessness over ones own destiny which isn't all that healthy. But they don't seem to go in for violence in any very consistent way or with much enthusiasm.
Yes there are raving lunatics of all these, and every other faith. There are atrocities carried out by people who believe their people/race/religion/country or whatever is right and all others are wrong and inferior. But I can't think of any that appear to do this as consistently as Islam.
I have spoken with Muslims before, it may surprise some people to learn. Even with an Imam, though I was not 1/10th as sceptical/guarded as I am now. Personally, I find it much easier to get a complete understanding via this sort of forum where I can cross reference things and consider my responses than talking to someone face to face where skilled people can easily brush things aside.
Thanks for that kind offer though. I live outside the UK. I also actually live about 500 yards from a mosque. I will be back in the UK at some point next year and may well take you up on this.
Though *all* my questions would probably take a few days.
Until then the sanity of people who are driven insane by internet threads will have to suffer.
So a question. What are your thoughts on this? And on how it will be received by ordinary Muslims?
http://4freedoms.com/group/theology/forum/topics/a...
Dr Tawfik Hamid, himself a former radical has written a commentary on the Koran, a sort o new 'tafsir' which he claims emphasises the peaceful and tolerant over the violent and the supremacist.
I haven't read it, but this seems like exactly the sort of thing that is needed IMO.
What sort of response do you expect to simply saying everything I write is idiotic?
Trigger
From an outsider's perspective I would say that anyone who can say they are happy to live under secular laws as equals with people of other faiths or none, and anyone who would unequivocally say that there is no place for hudud punishments in the modern world is probably not a problem. This seems to be something than many self-described moderates have a problem with, and it is something that seems to be in conflict with the traditional understandings of Islam.
No offence taken, my understanding of Islam is limited but hopefully improving.
Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi gave himself that name. No doubt he is a proper lunatic, but I find it hard to believe his interpretation is entirely arbitrary and made up. It seems to fit too well with the core texts and it seems so attractive to many Muslims who go to join it. That's not to say they are living entirely by the core texts, they obviously skipped the bit about no compulsion in religion, and reject what I understand to be a direct command of treating the Yazidi as 'People of the Book' but none the less well founded in Islamic texts and history.
And it's not just IS. There are jihadist groups in Thailand, Nigeria, Somalia and many other places besides saying very similar things. They may all be doing an element of cherry picking and interpreting in their own way, but even if this is so it seems persistent enough to think that the texts and teachings lend themselves to this.
I similarly don't know a great deal about Hinduism. I know they had the awful custom of Suti, which I understand is all but gone save for a few incidents in remote areas.
I know a little about Sikhism and it seems to have an emphasis on equality and freedom o conscience at its core. Something I can't say for what I know of Islam.
I am married to a Buddhist so know a little more of that. I would say it tends to instill a sort of passivity and feeling of powerlessness over ones own destiny which isn't all that healthy. But they don't seem to go in for violence in any very consistent way or with much enthusiasm.
Yes there are raving lunatics of all these, and every other faith. There are atrocities carried out by people who believe their people/race/religion/country or whatever is right and all others are wrong and inferior. But I can't think of any that appear to do this as consistently as Islam.
I have spoken with Muslims before, it may surprise some people to learn. Even with an Imam, though I was not 1/10th as sceptical/guarded as I am now. Personally, I find it much easier to get a complete understanding via this sort of forum where I can cross reference things and consider my responses than talking to someone face to face where skilled people can easily brush things aside.
Thanks for that kind offer though. I live outside the UK. I also actually live about 500 yards from a mosque. I will be back in the UK at some point next year and may well take you up on this.
Though *all* my questions would probably take a few days.
Until then the sanity of people who are driven insane by internet threads will have to suffer.
So a question. What are your thoughts on this? And on how it will be received by ordinary Muslims?
http://4freedoms.com/group/theology/forum/topics/a...
Dr Tawfik Hamid, himself a former radical has written a commentary on the Koran, a sort o new 'tafsir' which he claims emphasises the peaceful and tolerant over the violent and the supremacist.
I haven't read it, but this seems like exactly the sort of thing that is needed IMO.
AJS- said:
Trigger
From an outsider's perspective I would say that anyone who can say they are happy to live under secular laws as equals with people of other faiths or none, and anyone who would unequivocally say that there is no place for hudud punishments in the modern world is probably not a problem. This seems to be something than many self-described moderates have a problem with, and it is something that seems to be in conflict with the traditional understandings of Islam.
How did you get to that conclusion? Millions of muslims are living happily in non muslim countries and are happy without hudud punishments, and have been for centuries. Hudud punishments are only currently being carried out in saudi arabia. This is because its always been done there since they were implemented back in the ye olde days. They are happy with this system, let them use it. As long as its not being exploited by the elites and innocent people and are being punished I dont see an issue with them using it. If they ever want to change that to a more modern system they can do. One thing I know is I wont be breaking any laws in Saudi Arabia thats for sure.From an outsider's perspective I would say that anyone who can say they are happy to live under secular laws as equals with people of other faiths or none, and anyone who would unequivocally say that there is no place for hudud punishments in the modern world is probably not a problem. This seems to be something than many self-described moderates have a problem with, and it is something that seems to be in conflict with the traditional understandings of Islam.
AJS- said:
Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi gave himself that name. No doubt he is a proper lunatic, but I find it hard to believe his interpretation is entirely arbitrary and made up. It seems to fit too well with the core texts and it seems so attractive to many Muslims who go to join it. That's not to say they are living entirely by the core texts, they obviously skipped the bit about no compulsion in religion, and reject what I understand to be a direct command of treating the Yazidi as 'People of the Book' but none the less well founded in Islamic texts and history.
And it's not just IS. There are jihadist groups in Thailand, Nigeria, Somalia and many other places besides saying very similar things. They may all be doing an element of cherry picking and interpreting in their own way, but even if this is so it seems persistent enough to think that the texts and teachings lend themselves to this.
If I start telling people in the UK that god wants us to rob the banks and you could keep the money and they will be no come back on you. A queue will start forming at the door, of naive, gullible people who are just in it for themselves. And it's not just IS. There are jihadist groups in Thailand, Nigeria, Somalia and many other places besides saying very similar things. They may all be doing an element of cherry picking and interpreting in their own way, but even if this is so it seems persistent enough to think that the texts and teachings lend themselves to this.
AJS- said:
I similarly don't know a great deal about Hinduism. I know they had the awful custom of Suti, which I understand is all but gone save for a few incidents in remote areas.
Bride burning? I'm not sure that is a religious thing its more cultural. Bit like female genital mutilation and arranged marriages. They are just stupid cultural traditions that have come from god knows where.AJS- said:
I know a little about Sikhism and it seems to have an emphasis on equality and freedom o conscience at its core. Something I can't say for what I know of Islam.
Really?? I have shown you some raving looneys which use Sikhism to justify terrorism and they ready to fight and terrorize for their own state. This has nothing to do with their religion as Sikhism is Peaceful as if you have actually done any research on Islam you will realise that is too. After this comment I am starting to feel you dont want to believe anything positive about Islam and keep jumping on the same stuff these terrorists are. Like I said before rather than sticking to forums where you will find raving looneys and people with hidden agendas you need to spend time with muslims. Dont worry I will put out a memo to the muslim community making sure you are treated equally and are allowed to practice your "freedom of conscience".AJS- said:
I am married to a Buddhist so know a little more of that. I would say it tends to instill a sort of passivity and feeling of powerlessness over ones own destiny which isn't all that healthy. But they don't seem to go in for violence in any very consistent way or with much enthusiasm.
Read above. Religion has nothing to do with it. Raving looneys (google ethnic cleansing in rohingya and you will feel like hitler is back) AJS- said:
Yes there are raving lunatics of all these, and every other faith. There are atrocities carried out by people who believe their people/race/religion/country or whatever is right and all others are wrong and inferior. But I can't think of any that appear to do this as consistently as Islam.
Yes agreed. Recently its the tool for looneys to use as its the muslim countries who are being invaded/exploited. Think about how recent this is. And also think about the countries this is happening in. Helpless people are being exploited after they have lost they loved one or innocent people of their kin. Example the Lee rigby thing, How easy was it after that for Britain first and BNP to recruit after that..AJS- said:
I have spoken with Muslims before, it may surprise some people to learn. Even with an Imam, though I was not 1/10th as sceptical/guarded as I am now. Personally, I find it much easier to get a complete understanding via this sort of forum where I can cross reference things and consider my responses than talking to someone face to face where skilled people can easily brush things aside.
No... Your not going to get anywhere like that. You will only come back to the same crap which bigots and racists like to push. Even the media seems to be biased. AJS- said:
Thanks for that kind offer though. I live outside the UK. I also actually live about 500 yards from a mosque. I will be back in the UK at some point next year and may well take you up on this.
You live 500 hundred yards from a mosque? how are you still alive? Surely they would have kidnapped you and held you at ransom by now? Get in there!! talk to them!! it doesn't matter how many questions you have. Its actually his job to advise his community no matter what. AJS- said:
So a question. What are your thoughts on this? And on how it will be received by ordinary Muslims?
http://4freedoms.com/group/theology/forum/topics/a...
Dr Tawfik Hamid, himself a former radical has written a commentary on the Koran, a sort o new 'tafsir' which he claims emphasises the peaceful and tolerant over the violent and the supremacist.
I haven't read it, but this seems like exactly the sort of thing that is needed IMO.
There is already thousands of tafsirs(interpretations) which dont promote violence. Like 98% of them. Try reading a couple. Its good work but has already been done to death. Wont be picked up by anyone who has an evil agenda though as it doesnt work in their favour. They like to pick on the 2 % which means they can rape women and exploit anyone they want.http://4freedoms.com/group/theology/forum/topics/a...
Dr Tawfik Hamid, himself a former radical has written a commentary on the Koran, a sort o new 'tafsir' which he claims emphasises the peaceful and tolerant over the violent and the supremacist.
I haven't read it, but this seems like exactly the sort of thing that is needed IMO.
triggerh4ppy said:
AJS - Just for the sanity of the other users if you let me know where you live I will find you the address of a local mosque/imam for you to go to. i will even phone up in advance and let them know you are coming so they will make sure they have time for you. Take a list of all your unanswered questions and hopefully that will help you. Although I am currently trying to answer what I can I think an Imam will be able to go through the detail and reasons with a much better understanding.
Good offer. But he knows best because he knows someone who knows someone, who once served a Muslim in a shop. Oh and he has t'internet to educate him. Let's see if he takes you up.
Try and condense it down a bit.
I simply think that stoning is wrong, always and everywhere. How we seek to influence or admonish Saudi Arabia for using it is a lot more complicated, but it doesn't seem a great ask to expect that people defending Islam as a moderate and peaceful religion could be equally unequivocal about saying that it is wrong. Especially when it does *appea*r to be quite a deeply rooted part of Islam, rather than simply a Saudi custom.
I should think if you started telling people in the UK that then you would have a queue of police officers coming after you as long as the queue of would be bank robbers.
I don't see the peaceful and moderate side of Islam in the way it's quite immediately apparent in Sikhism. There are allusions to it, but there are also many passages which seem to be very clearly exhorting violence and supremacism.
I am aware of the 'ethnic cleansing' in Rakhine, and aware of it's background. There are no angels there, but I don't see much comparison with say Islamic State or the Muslim Brotherhood.
I don't see this as recent. Islamic conquest, subjugation and violence goes all the way back to the beginning.
Why is an internet discussion, with all of the vast resources of the internet at our disposal and time for considered and complete replies likely to cast Islam in a bad light?
Still alive and disbelieving. I've never said that I think all Muslims are evil or all mosques are covers for militant cells. It's a rather tricky subject and my grasp of Thai (I live in Bangkok) is not up to discussing theology and history.
So is it fair to say that these are an evolving body of documents? If so it still seems to be a step in the right direction.
Again referring to Wiki, sorry, best I've got, brings up only a handful of English tafsir. The first one I could read online was the Tafhim version, which was originally translated to Urdu, completed in 1972. It was then released in English by the Islamic Foundation in 2006. Far from perfect I agree, but they have this to say about the jizya in the infamous surah 9:29:
This is jizyah of which the Muslims have been feeling apologetic during the last two centuries of their degeneration and there are still some people who continue to apologize for it. But the way of Allah is straight and clear and does not stand in need of any apology to the rebels against Allah. Instead of offering apologies on behalf of Islam for the measure that guarantees security of life, property and faith to those who choose to live under its protection, the Muslims should feel proud of such a humane law as that of jizyah. For it is obvious that the maximum freedom that can be allowed to those who do not adopt the Way of Allah but choose to tread the ways of error is that they should be tolerated to lead the life they like. That is why the Islamic state offers them protection, if they agree to live as its zimmis by paying jizyah, but it cannot allow that they should remain supreme rulers in any place and establish wrong ways and impose them on others. As this state of things inevitably produces chaos and disorder, it is the duty of the true Muslims to exert their utmost to bring to an end their wicked rule and bring them under a righteous order.
As regards the question, “What do the non-Muslims get in return for jizyah”, it may suffice to say that it is the price of the freedom which the Islamic state allows them in following their erroneous ways, while living in the jurisdiction of Islam and enjoying its protection. The money thus collected is spent in maintaining the righteous administration that gives them the freedom and protects their rights. This also serves as a yearly reminder to them that they have been deprived of the honor of paying Zakat in the Way of Allah, and forced to pay jizyah instead as a price of following the ways of error.
Hardly love thy neighbour.
Of course that is only one source, and a flawed one as I said. Any other tasfir you would recommend?
I simply think that stoning is wrong, always and everywhere. How we seek to influence or admonish Saudi Arabia for using it is a lot more complicated, but it doesn't seem a great ask to expect that people defending Islam as a moderate and peaceful religion could be equally unequivocal about saying that it is wrong. Especially when it does *appea*r to be quite a deeply rooted part of Islam, rather than simply a Saudi custom.
I should think if you started telling people in the UK that then you would have a queue of police officers coming after you as long as the queue of would be bank robbers.
I don't see the peaceful and moderate side of Islam in the way it's quite immediately apparent in Sikhism. There are allusions to it, but there are also many passages which seem to be very clearly exhorting violence and supremacism.
I am aware of the 'ethnic cleansing' in Rakhine, and aware of it's background. There are no angels there, but I don't see much comparison with say Islamic State or the Muslim Brotherhood.
I don't see this as recent. Islamic conquest, subjugation and violence goes all the way back to the beginning.
Why is an internet discussion, with all of the vast resources of the internet at our disposal and time for considered and complete replies likely to cast Islam in a bad light?
Still alive and disbelieving. I've never said that I think all Muslims are evil or all mosques are covers for militant cells. It's a rather tricky subject and my grasp of Thai (I live in Bangkok) is not up to discussing theology and history.
So is it fair to say that these are an evolving body of documents? If so it still seems to be a step in the right direction.
Again referring to Wiki, sorry, best I've got, brings up only a handful of English tafsir. The first one I could read online was the Tafhim version, which was originally translated to Urdu, completed in 1972. It was then released in English by the Islamic Foundation in 2006. Far from perfect I agree, but they have this to say about the jizya in the infamous surah 9:29:
This is jizyah of which the Muslims have been feeling apologetic during the last two centuries of their degeneration and there are still some people who continue to apologize for it. But the way of Allah is straight and clear and does not stand in need of any apology to the rebels against Allah. Instead of offering apologies on behalf of Islam for the measure that guarantees security of life, property and faith to those who choose to live under its protection, the Muslims should feel proud of such a humane law as that of jizyah. For it is obvious that the maximum freedom that can be allowed to those who do not adopt the Way of Allah but choose to tread the ways of error is that they should be tolerated to lead the life they like. That is why the Islamic state offers them protection, if they agree to live as its zimmis by paying jizyah, but it cannot allow that they should remain supreme rulers in any place and establish wrong ways and impose them on others. As this state of things inevitably produces chaos and disorder, it is the duty of the true Muslims to exert their utmost to bring to an end their wicked rule and bring them under a righteous order.
As regards the question, “What do the non-Muslims get in return for jizyah”, it may suffice to say that it is the price of the freedom which the Islamic state allows them in following their erroneous ways, while living in the jurisdiction of Islam and enjoying its protection. The money thus collected is spent in maintaining the righteous administration that gives them the freedom and protects their rights. This also serves as a yearly reminder to them that they have been deprived of the honor of paying Zakat in the Way of Allah, and forced to pay jizyah instead as a price of following the ways of error.
Hardly love thy neighbour.
Of course that is only one source, and a flawed one as I said. Any other tasfir you would recommend?
OP why don't you do what 'triggerh4ppy' has said you do and go and visit your local Mosque in person take your list of questions and go and speak to them directly, get his answers and then report back.
You already have stated you have your guard up about Islam and are very skeptical about the religion so rather than try and make counterpoints on here find out from the horses mouth and then make up your mind.
For me personally I do not have a problem with the religion, the media will only pick up on the bad parts as it makes good stories but for me all religions (Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity etc) all have pieces which if cherry picked can be used in your own agenda for your own gain for what you believe in.
I googled 'terrorists attacks in the name of Christianity' and came across this link. Now at the time was the news full of normal Christians speaking out about how their religion is not like that? Maybe some did but its not the norm. In that case why should every Muslim come out and speak against ISIS or similar groups?
http://www.occupydemocrats.com/the-top-five-attack...
I appreciate that you are concerned by the religion, and that people are using Islam as an excuse to commit terrorists attacks, but so to say Islam needs to be reformed as a religion is lunacy on your behalf.
You already have stated you have your guard up about Islam and are very skeptical about the religion so rather than try and make counterpoints on here find out from the horses mouth and then make up your mind.
For me personally I do not have a problem with the religion, the media will only pick up on the bad parts as it makes good stories but for me all religions (Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity etc) all have pieces which if cherry picked can be used in your own agenda for your own gain for what you believe in.
I googled 'terrorists attacks in the name of Christianity' and came across this link. Now at the time was the news full of normal Christians speaking out about how their religion is not like that? Maybe some did but its not the norm. In that case why should every Muslim come out and speak against ISIS or similar groups?
http://www.occupydemocrats.com/the-top-five-attack...
I appreciate that you are concerned by the religion, and that people are using Islam as an excuse to commit terrorists attacks, but so to say Islam needs to be reformed as a religion is lunacy on your behalf.
Challo said:
OP why don't you do what 'triggerh4ppy' has said you do and go and visit your local Mosque in person take your list of questions and go and speak to them directly, get his answers and then report back.
You already have stated you have your guard up about Islam and are very skeptical about the religion so rather than try and make counterpoints on here find out from the horses mouth and then make up your mind.
He said he lives in Thailand and his Thai isn't up to it.You already have stated you have your guard up about Islam and are very skeptical about the religion so rather than try and make counterpoints on here find out from the horses mouth and then make up your mind.
I used to hold discussions with a very Christian bloke I worked with who would try to convince me of the truth of the Bible. Whenever I mentioned any of the patent nonsense (walking on water, parting the seas, the Ark etc) he would always say "I am not qualified to answer you properly, come the Church and talk to my Pastor, he has the answers, he has the PROOF!"
Needless to say I didn't bother.
We keep coming back to the same thing now.
You should go talk to an imam because:
You do not know if even I am a muslim. I could be a 14 year old devout satanist goat worshipper for all you know. Anyone can be a keyboard warrior sitting behind statements both for and against any topic you want on the internet. Im sure I could even find articles liking judaism to peadophilia. doesn't mean anything. That tafsir was converted from arabic to urdu to english. I am already confused. I cant reccomend one to you as I tend not to read tafsir and just read direct translations of the quran. If I need help with tafsir go direct to an imam.
I have told you how I and most of the muslim world interprate them parts of the quran. If you want details and explanations you need to go talk to an imam/scholar.
You should go talk to an imam because:
You do not know if even I am a muslim. I could be a 14 year old devout satanist goat worshipper for all you know. Anyone can be a keyboard warrior sitting behind statements both for and against any topic you want on the internet. Im sure I could even find articles liking judaism to peadophilia. doesn't mean anything. That tafsir was converted from arabic to urdu to english. I am already confused. I cant reccomend one to you as I tend not to read tafsir and just read direct translations of the quran. If I need help with tafsir go direct to an imam.
I have told you how I and most of the muslim world interprate them parts of the quran. If you want details and explanations you need to go talk to an imam/scholar.
Imams can also but nut jobs. For a 14 year old satanist you've made some valid points in defence of Islam that have given me pause to think and areas to read up on more. I tend to think that with logical, honest discussion and the huge resources available on the internet you can find out a lot of useful stuff.
I'm not really convinced talking to an imam will add anything that this can't, but I've said I will do it as soon as practical.
In the mean time, unless one of these learned fellows actually wants to defend Islam on this channel I don't see any reason why I shouldn't continue to discuss it with those who wish to on a politics forum.
I'm not really convinced talking to an imam will add anything that this can't, but I've said I will do it as soon as practical.
In the mean time, unless one of these learned fellows actually wants to defend Islam on this channel I don't see any reason why I shouldn't continue to discuss it with those who wish to on a politics forum.
AJS- said:
Imams can also but nut jobs. For a 14 year old satanist you've made some valid points in defence of Islam that have given me pause to think and areas to read up on more. I tend to think that with logical, honest discussion and the huge resources available on the internet you can find out a lot of useful stuff.
I'm not really convinced talking to an imam will add anything that this can't, but I've said I will do it as soon as practical.
In the mean time, unless one of these learned fellows actually wants to defend Islam on this channel I don't see any reason why I shouldn't continue to discuss it with those who wish to on a politics forum.
I think this may be the wrong place if your looking for imams/scholars to be on here. what your doing is like asking a school student to answer questions on complex quantum physics, you need a lecturer!. Most muslims including I would read that passage and not think anymore than why I already have said. The amount of depth/detail you are going into is only going to be answered correctly by people who teach and study Islam on a daily basis.I'm not really convinced talking to an imam will add anything that this can't, but I've said I will do it as soon as practical.
In the mean time, unless one of these learned fellows actually wants to defend Islam on this channel I don't see any reason why I shouldn't continue to discuss it with those who wish to on a politics forum.
Like I said I tried. There's a load of websites online where you can "ask an imam" or "ask a scholar" try those they may help you.
I was going to correct the grammer in this reply but I cant be bothered.
AJS- said:
Imams can also but nut jobs. For a 14 year old satanist you've made some valid points in defence of Islam that have given me pause to think and areas to read up on more. I tend to think that with logical, honest discussion and the huge resources available on the internet you can find out a lot of useful stuff.
I'm not really convinced talking to an imam will add anything that this can't, but I've said I will do it as soon as practical.
In the mean time, unless one of these learned fellows actually wants to defend Islam on this channel I don't see any reason why I shouldn't continue to discuss it with those who wish to on a politics forum.
Or in other words:I'm not really convinced talking to an imam will add anything that this can't, but I've said I will do it as soon as practical.
In the mean time, unless one of these learned fellows actually wants to defend Islam on this channel I don't see any reason why I shouldn't continue to discuss it with those who wish to on a politics forum.
"I don't want to actually to engage the people I love to talk about in a discussion about them as they might say things that refute my prejudices. Having got that out the way, I'd much rather keep banging the same old drum on every thread I can, even starting some new ones so I can have my stereotypes reinforced by like-minded pals."
Excellent. We've done good work here today. Let's start another thread that's the-same-but-different now so as to duck out of this?
Radical Muslims?
Islamic Extremists?
Moderate non-active Muslims in the West?
They're all good to go I reckon...
2 reasons for that Trigger.
Firstly, like any ideology, it's not really what the academics and the highly learned people think of the finer details that really matter. It's the guy with the gun/bomb/army/police force.
Secondly, and related, I would like to think that if I was part of an ideology or religion which I would feel I was betraying by condemning the practice of stoning people to death for adultery, then I would leave it.
Firstly, like any ideology, it's not really what the academics and the highly learned people think of the finer details that really matter. It's the guy with the gun/bomb/army/police force.
Secondly, and related, I would like to think that if I was part of an ideology or religion which I would feel I was betraying by condemning the practice of stoning people to death for adultery, then I would leave it.
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