Can we talk about Germany for a bit?

[anonymous-user]

Blue Oval84 said:

Not convinced of that, many of my gay friends grew up in UK council estates and had pretty much no problems at all.

I think the point is that the research showing over half think it should be illegal was done across a broad range of the relevant society. UK society as a whole does not share that view to the best of my knowledge.

Correct, society as a whole is c 4-5% IIRC

[Trabi601]

wsurfa said:

Trabi601 said:

wsurfa said:

Trabi601 said:

You'd get a similar result if you conducted a poll on a UK 'social housing' estate - if not even more biased to illegality.

So, your point is?

That clearly you have no defence for that rate being about 1000% of that of the general population.

Or that you think that both 'social housing' occupants and muslims are dangerously intolerant.

Well, if you also add in the Catholic church, then you have an example of minority groups not approving of other minority groups!

I'm actually surprised that a religious group has such a tolerance of homosexuality! - religion generally has a low tolerance level for it.

So they do have a tolerance issue, good to know. Perhaps the 'wife should always obey the husband' is also a tolerance issue?

As an aside, have the catholic church been throwing many gays from buildings recently?

Or do you want to run away into a pointless parallel again?

Edited by wsurfa on Tuesday 20th September 23:35

Wife should obey husband?! - that's much more a Western issue than you'd think. I know many, many Muslim families where the husband is ruled by the wife. In fact, I'd actually say that strong Muslim women are prevalent - just because they wear religious head-dress, it doesn't mean they're 'ruled by the husband' - this is a very common misconception.

People really need to broaden their horizons beyond what the media feed them!

[Mothersruin]

Trabi601 said:

wsurfa said:

Trabi601 said:

wsurfa said:

Trabi601 said:

You'd get a similar result if you conducted a poll on a UK 'social housing' estate - if not even more biased to illegality.

So, your point is?

That clearly you have no defence for that rate being about 1000% of that of the general population.

Or that you think that both 'social housing' occupants and muslims are dangerously intolerant.

Well, if you also add in the Catholic church, then you have an example of minority groups not approving of other minority groups!

I'm actually surprised that a religious group has such a tolerance of homosexuality! - religion generally has a low tolerance level for it.

So they do have a tolerance issue, good to know. Perhaps the 'wife should always obey the husband' is also a tolerance issue?

As an aside, have the catholic church been throwing many gays from buildings recently?

Or do you want to run away into a pointless parallel again?

Edited by wsurfa on Tuesday 20th September 23:35

Wife should obey husband?! - that's much more a Western issue than you'd think. I know many, many Muslim families where the husband is ruled by the wife. In fact, I'd actually say that strong Muslim women are prevalent - just because they wear religious head-dress, it doesn't mean they're 'ruled by the husband' - this is a very common misconception.

People really need to broaden their horizons beyond what the media feed them!

Indeed, I think people should spend time in Islamic countries, from Western North Africa, all the countries East to Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei over 20 odd years, with some experience in the governmental/security/military side of things before you come to any conclusion.

Or you could just hang out in central Birmingham for a bit.

[irocfan]

rb5er said:

Its called denial.

Nope that's a river in Egypt

[scherzkeks]

Trabi601 said:

Germany even prides itself on being one of the best countries in Europe in which to get a 'kebap'.

Döner was invented here.

[Hugo a Gogo]

not really, it just means meat done on a rotating spit

but a 'Döner Kebab', meat stuck in bread with all the trimmings, that was supposedly a German thing

[scherzkeks]

Hugo a Gogo said:

not really, it just means meat done on a rotating spit

but a 'Döner Kebab', meat stuck in bread with all the trimmings, that was supposedly a German thing

Yes, and in colloqial use, we just say Döner. But if you insist on pedantry, have at it.

[Hugo a Gogo]

...

[Benni]

MrBrightSi said:

Not having German guilt makes these situations baffling, the cognitive dissonance of some of the touchy feely people in that country doesn't make any sense. Yes we're turning into a police state, but aside from some decent down to earth people who are going for the AfD or have took great risks to march with PEGIDA, the country is mental and it's been brought on itself not just through Merkel.

Anyone who buys into the "Right wing/neo-nazis" bullst needs to shake their head. The biggest threat to your safety and the countries safety right now is ANTIFA who are the true face of fascism or large groups of young migrant men who have been responsible for some pretty deplorable crimes, from theft to assault to rape.

So the hundreds of assaults on refugees and their homes were all done by Antifa ?

Did you join the "down to earth people on PEGIDA marches",

maybe waving a Union Flag for an added touch of internationalism ?

Sure would have a good resonance in Dresden´s down to earth Pegida crowd.

[Hugh Jarse]

BIANCO said:

This food argument that's used every now and then to justify mass immigration, does my head in. “ You can get a great curry now in one of the hundreds of restaurants down the road”. “ You can get a great kabab in one of the thousands of kabab shops isn't it wonderful”. The British like a good cup of tea but we didn't import millions of Chinese to make it for us FFS.

recipes cant travel apparently

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

Well Merkel wishes she could turn the clock back and now distances herself from the slogan "We can do it" which was the rallying cry at the height of the crisis. Acknowledges the effect (control) afforded by the closure of the Balkan land route and unusually candid was the claim that a "balance was needed between humanitarian responsibility and the limits of the country's capacity. Everyone knew that African refugees were primarily economic migrants and we don't want that. "

Wow just wow. Considering she was one of the highest cruyics of the reticence of other batiks and in particular anything which stood in the way of free movement


Handelsblatt English version

Merkel's not a stupid women so she must of realised before her open door policy what the upshot of it would be and that's without what went down on new years eve.
Has she got a little soft spot for the far-right?

[MrBrightSi]

Benni said:

MrBrightSi said:

Not having German guilt makes these situations baffling, the cognitive dissonance of some of the touchy feely people in that country doesn't make any sense. Yes we're turning into a police state, but aside from some decent down to earth people who are going for the AfD or have took great risks to march with PEGIDA, the country is mental and it's been brought on itself not just through Merkel.

Anyone who buys into the "Right wing/neo-nazis" bullst needs to shake their head. The biggest threat to your safety and the countries safety right now is ANTIFA who are the true face of fascism or large groups of young migrant men who have been responsible for some pretty deplorable crimes, from theft to assault to rape.

So the hundreds of assaults on refugees and their homes were all done by Antifa ?

Did you join the "down to earth people on PEGIDA marches",

maybe waving a Union Flag for an added touch of internationalism ?

Sure would have a good resonance in Dresden´s down to earth Pegida crowd.

Your point is?

I honestly have no idea at what you're trying to get at here.

[scherzkeks]

BIANCO said:

This food argument that's used every now and then to justify mass immigration, does my head in. “ You can get a great curry now in one of the hundreds of restaurants down the road”. “ You can get a great kabab in one of the thousands of kabab shops isn't it wonderful”. The British like a good cup of tea but we didn't import millions of Chinese to make it for us FFS.

It does my head in that you consider that an "argument for mass immigration."

[Trabi601]

scherzkeks said:

BIANCO said:

This food argument that's used every now and then to justify mass immigration, does my head in. “ You can get a great curry now in one of the hundreds of restaurants down the road”. “ You can get a great kabab in one of the thousands of kabab shops isn't it wonderful”. The British like a good cup of tea but we didn't import millions of Chinese to make it for us FFS.

It does my head in that you consider that an "argument for mass immigration."

It's unbelievable - my point was that the Turks are so well settled and integrated into German society that a Turkish food is now famous for being brought to us by German Turks.

Suppose it's a bit like the UK and many curry variants, though.

But that's because we also have a pretty well integrated society.

[Tony427]

A colleague and myself went to a trade show at Frankfurt last week and stayed in a lovely picturesque hotel on the Rhine. The hotel owner joined us as we were having a beer and , after congratulating us on the Brexit result, proceeded to tell us just how peed off the german middle class is with Merkel and her cronies.

" Its always the middle class who are squeezed and we have had enough."

Next day we were at the show and were on a trade stand when we were approached by one of the sales guys. A friendly, mid 40's German. After the usual pleasantries, "where are you from ? etc" he started with

"You have the right idea in the UK" and proceeded almost on a rant culminating with " I am not a Nazi but the refugees get everything and Germans, especially the middle class, get nothing."

We were a little surprsied at the use of the "nazi" word.

He proceeded to tell us about a recent incident when his aged mother broke her leg, and was waiting in hospital A&E for treatment in much pain and a family of refugees came in and were ushered through in front of all the waiting Germans.

" Merkel, I absolutely hate that woman, she's finished."

We came off the stand thinking " Bloomin heck we only really went on for a free carrier bag."

After a few hours we needed a break so left the trade show to find a local restaurant for a late lunch. We found a lovely typically German restaurant and was greeted by the owner, an Indian with impeccable English. It transpired his wife was English.

The owner started chatting with us, and he turned the conversation to the economy. " Its tough" he said " we are all getting squeezed to pay for all the refugees, we didn't want them but Merkel forced them on us. Why should they get everything, which we pay for, and they haven't contributed anything. It's just not good enough. It's got to stop"

Totally anecdotal, unscientific, unprompted and maybe unrepresentative, but when three middle class Germans , who should all be feeling good about the country and the future, all volunteer their negative opinions and unhappiness, and all blame the present political leaders for the mess, it seems to me that the times are achanging in Germany.

Cheers,

Tony

Edited by Tony427 on Friday 23 September 11:12

[Adenauer]

Tony427 said:

We came off the stand thinking " Bloomin heck we only really went on for a free carrier bag."

Tony427 said:

The owner started chatting with us, and he turned the conversation to the economy. " Its tough" he said " we are all getting squeezed to pay for all the refugees,

Sorry but I don't get that bit, my take home pay, tax contributions etc. haven't changed one iota in the last few years, where is this 'we are all getting squeezed to pay for them' thing coming from?

[Hugo a Gogo]

+1

same story all over the world, people moan 'things aren't fair, they get everything, I get nothing'

and as if hospitals prioritise immigrants, it's fking nonsense

[Tony427]

Adenauer said:

Tony427 said:

We came off the stand thinking " Bloomin heck we only really went on for a free carrier bag."

Tony427 said:

The owner started chatting with us, and he turned the conversation to the economy. " Its tough" he said " we are all getting squeezed to pay for all the refugees,

Sorry but I don't get that bit, my take home pay, tax contributions etc. haven't changed one iota in the last few years, where is this 'we are all getting squeezed to pay for them' thing coming from?

Perhaps you don't own a restaurant in Frankfurt?

It may not even be true for the guy, but its his perception of the situation which is important.

And if enough people share the same perception?

To the hotel owner it was the local council applying the squeeze who were increasing their taxes for the outside tables which meant that he would be reducing the number of outside tables as they were becoming uneconomic. We were on a table that wifi couldnt reach and an innocent enquiry as to the wifi coverage led to him bemoaning the local council increasing table taxes. He explained he could have put in a wifi booster but he was taking the two tables farthest away from the hotel out of commission at the end of the season so it wasn't worth the added expenditure.

His perception was that the local council was increasing table taxes( the tables are on his own land btw) because they were short of money, because of ...... you get the drift.

Cheers,

Tony

[Digga]

TBF, taking just the NHS as a single example, they are citing a major cause of the issues they're experiencing is increased demand. Now there are many reasons for this; demographics, health, the increasing number and complexity of services/medical procedures offered (gastric bands etc.), but one element is population increase, of which some is due to immigration.

[Hugo a Gogo]

not really the same with medical care in Germany as with the NHS

some (not all) refugees have got a medical insurance card, so their treatment is paid just like anyone elses

i'm no tax expert, but I've never heard of a table-tax on pubs and restaurants either