Can we talk about Germany for a bit?

Can we talk about Germany for a bit?

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Discussion

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
irocfan said:
I don't understand - now that Merkel is all for banning the burka does that mean she racist and sexist?
Nah, she's just been reading NP&E.

The world has finally realised that all the utter nonsense from the liberal left of the last twenty years on open doors and multi-culturalism is utter drivel. Fine have immigrants, but people know there's a need for management and integration.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Digga said:
Nah, she's just been reading NP&E.

The world has finally realised that all the utter nonsense from the liberal left of the last twenty years on open doors and multi-culturalism is utter drivel. Fine have immigrants, but people know there's a need for management and integration.
Multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive. As for banning the Burka, it is ridiculous. What we should be concerned about are individuals committing crimes or consipring to commit crimes.

Banning forms of dress is not the mark of a free society.

Camoradi

4,285 posts

255 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Driving home late last night, I had to laugh out loud when I heard the quote from Mrs Merkel's speech that the unplanned influx into Germany of hundreds of thousands of immigrants was....

"A great success, that must not be repeated" hehe

You have to admire her for keeping a straight face as she said it

Lunar Tick

112 posts

140 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
Multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive.
Not sure I agree with this. I don't care about someone's ethnicity, race, religion or sexuality. But a common culture with similar, shared values is the 'glue' that binds society together. A society with 'multi-cultures' quickly becomes fractured and inharmonious. This is the situation that modern Britain faces now.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
rovermorris999 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Yeah, the Christians are determined to see women treated as equals. If only secular laws would stop slowing their progress down.
Typical PH. I never mentioned Christians as being wonderful. Merely that most of the basic tenets, not killing, stealing etc, are not bad rules by which to live. That's all.
But what use is it if some of the basic tenets are great and some are awful.

You still have to use some externally-acquired morality to tell one from the other.

s2art

18,937 posts

252 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
But what use is it if some of the basic tenets are great and some are awful.

You still have to use some externally-acquired morality to tell one from the other.
And yet, somehow the CoE managed to do this.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Gargamel said:
SpeckledJim said:
Yeah, the Christians are determined to see women treated as equals. If only secular laws would stop slowing their progress down.
Hmm not sure what your point is here, The Church of England has Female Priests and Bishops ? I don't think you could say modern Christianity has a huge problem with equality.
Kicking and screaming. And had to be threatened with secular laws in order to finally evolve. And they still can't unite behind one view. They still have a HUGE problem with this.

And that's before we get on to their persecution of the institution of gay marriage. Delicious tea and cakes aside, they aren't a terrific bunch when it comes to tolerance.

StottyEvo

6,860 posts

162 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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scherzkeks said:
Banning forms of dress is not the mark of a free society.
I agree wholeheartedly, banning an item of clothing, unless for security purposes, is a ridiculous idea

I'm not a fan of the burka, I think people should be persuaded/encourage not to wear them and especially protected from being forced to wear one.

I'm still struggling to accept that Merkel said this. It's quite a right wing statement.

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
StottyEvo said:
scherzkeks said:
Banning forms of dress is not the mark of a free society.
I agree wholeheartedly, banning an item of clothing, unless for security purposes, is a ridiculous idea

I'm not a fan of the burka, I think people should be persuaded/encourage not to wear them and especially protected from being forced to wear one.

I'm still struggling to accept that Merkel said this. It's quite a right wing statement.
Agreed, we shouldn't be an item of clothing. We should, however, grow the fk up and banish religion to the loony bin and put a very tight lid on it.

Jinx

11,345 posts

259 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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SpeckledJim said:
And that's before we get on to their persecution of the institution of gay marriage. Delicious tea and cakes aside, they aren't a terrific bunch when it comes to tolerance.
Though slightly better than Castro......

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Lunar Tick said:
scherzkeks said:
Multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive.
Not sure I agree with this. I don't care about someone's ethnicity, race, religion or sexuality. But a common culture with similar, shared values is the 'glue' that binds society together. A society with 'multi-cultures' quickly becomes fractured and inharmonious. This is the situation that modern Britain faces now.
Well said. Allowing people to live in enclaves and ghettos, isolated from society at large is not good for them - especially for education and employment prospects - and not good for the rest of society. It is the ideal conditions for them-and-us views to propagate, for crazy notions like the idea anything from 50% to 80% of the UK is Muslim, and is one of the very things the Carey Report is highly critical of.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Lunar Tick said:
scherzkeks said:
Multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive.
Not sure I agree with this. I don't care about someone's ethnicity, race, religion or sexuality. But a common culture with similar, shared values is the 'glue' that binds society together. A society with 'multi-cultures' quickly becomes fractured and inharmonious. This is the situation that modern Britain faces now.
I come from the US, which is the definition of a melting pot. We have many cultural groups who have managed to maintain a sense of individuality while also sharing common American values.

I live in Germany now and it isn't much different; it takes time for integration to occur.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
I come from the US, which is the definition of a melting pot. We have many cultural groups who have managed to maintain a sense of individuality while also sharing common American values.

I live in Germany now and it isn't much different; it takes time for integration to occur.
With respect, the US is not a example of integration. Sure, there are many pockets of it, mainly the affluent and populous urban centres, but the nation as a whole is not.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Digga said:
scherzkeks said:
I come from the US, which is the definition of a melting pot. We have many cultural groups who have managed to maintain a sense of individuality while also sharing common American values.

I live in Germany now and it isn't much different; it takes time for integration to occur.
With respect, the US is not a example of integration. Sure, there are many pockets of it, mainly the affluent and populous urban centres, but the nation as a whole is not.
If you say so.

s2art

18,937 posts

252 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
I come from the US, which is the definition of a melting pot. We have many cultural groups who have managed to maintain a sense of individuality while also sharing common American values.

I live in Germany now and it isn't much different; it takes time for integration to occur.
The problem is that the latest generation, of muslims in particular in certain parts of the country, are less integrated than their parents or grand parents were. Integration is not happening over time.

danllama

5,728 posts

141 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
I think we can all agree that islamic integration in Britain has reversed massively since 2001.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
Digga said:
scherzkeks said:
I come from the US, which is the definition of a melting pot. We have many cultural groups who have managed to maintain a sense of individuality while also sharing common American values.

I live in Germany now and it isn't much different; it takes time for integration to occur.
With respect, the US is not a example of integration. Sure, there are many pockets of it, mainly the affluent and populous urban centres, but the nation as a whole is not.
If you say so.
Just my opinion, having visited both seaboards and driven through a very big chunk of the Mid West, numerous times. I see pretty good integration - especially SF and NY - but then places that are barely integrated with the country and highly insular, let alone racially and culturally diverse. That, by the way, is not to denigrate those places or people - a great many are extremely friendly and appear to enjoy a decent quality of life - but diverse they are not.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Digga said:
scherzkeks said:
Digga said:
scherzkeks said:
I come from the US, which is the definition of a melting pot. We have many cultural groups who have managed to maintain a sense of individuality while also sharing common American values.

I live in Germany now and it isn't much different; it takes time for integration to occur.
With respect, the US is not a example of integration. Sure, there are many pockets of it, mainly the affluent and populous urban centres, but the nation as a whole is not.
If you say so.
Just my opinion, having visited both seaboards and driven through a very big chunk of the Mid West, numerous times. I see pretty good integration - especially SF and NY - but then places that are barely integrated with the country and highly insular, let alone racially and culturally diverse. That, by the way, is not to denigrate those places or people - a great many are extremely friendly and appear to enjoy a decent quality of life - but diverse they are not.
In other words, the places immigrants flocked to (major cities) are racially and culturally diverse, and after several generations, are fully integrated in terms of the general criteria by which we define ourselves as Americans.

And in places where immigrants did not tend to go, we have insular pockets. Logic stands to reason that were these areas to experience an influx of immigrants, with time, those imigrants would integrate and the locations would become both multicultural and integrated, like many of our large and medium-sized cities. And really no different than here in Germany either.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
In other words, the places immigrants flocked to (major cities) are racially and culturally diverse, and after several generations, are fully integrated in terms of the general criteria by which we define ourselves as Americans.

And in places where immigrants did not tend to go, we have insular pockets. Logic stands to reason that were these areas to experience an influx of immigrants, with time, those imigrants would integrate and the locations would become both multicultural and integrated, like many of our large and medium-sized cities. And really no different than here in Germany either.
Not exactly. There are highly integrated places where everyone gels and gets along, and then there are places where there's diversity without integration - ghettos.

Complex factors and influences I think.

Hugh Jarse

3,486 posts

204 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
quotequote all
Camoradi said:
Driving home late last night, I had to laugh out loud when I heard the quote from Mrs Merkel's speech that the unplanned influx into Germany of hundreds of thousands of immigrants was....
"A great success, that must not be repeated" hehe
You have to admire her for keeping a straight face as she said it
hehe