Can we talk about Germany for a bit?
Discussion
Trabi601 said:
The primary cause is the internet making it easy for nut-jobs to align with a group who will exploit them.
This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
People like you are just as much a problem as the Muslims perpetrating these attacks. People like you have made Europe dangerous.This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
Trabi601 said:
PRTVR said:
Can you explain where your theory has taken place in the past ? Did the IRA have a worldwide following of mental people prepared to die to follow the cause, this type of action is deep rooted in religion, to ignore that is to ignore the primary cause .
The primary cause is the internet making it easy for nut-jobs to align with a group who will exploit them.This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
Wayne E Edge said:
Trabi601 said:
The primary cause is the internet making it easy for nut-jobs to align with a group who will exploit them.
This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
People like you are just as much a problem as the Muslims perpetrating these attacks. People like you have made Europe dangerous.This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
Edited by ATG on Thursday 13th April 08:18
Trabi601 said:
The primary cause is the internet making it easy for nut-jobs to align with a group who will exploit them.
This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
So what you are saying is that exposing vulnerable people to Islam, a violent ideology, is a bad idea then?This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
ATG said:
Wayne E Edge said:
Trabi601 said:
The primary cause is the internet making it easy for nut-jobs to align with a group who will exploit them.
This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
People like you are just as much a problem as the Muslims perpetrating these attacks. People like you have made Europe dangerous.This can also be evidenced by the rise in teenage suicides - support and methods are much more easily found since the advent of widespread internet access.
Edited by ATG on Thursday 13th April 08:18
This is, in no way, to say immigration is wrong, or that Muslims are terrorists, but to dismiss the links between the religion and the extremism attributed to it is utter stupidity.
Say you do manage to convince the wider population that Islamic Terrorism / Violence is part of their Religious texts, what do we do then ?
You can't ban Islam in Europe.
You cant re write their Religious texts.
You can tell people to ignore the chapters we don't like, but you cant enforce it.
You can try to educate them that peace and love is better, but the other chapters are still in there.
In fairness the current approach of doing nothing seems the only workable option.
You can't ban Islam in Europe.
You cant re write their Religious texts.
You can tell people to ignore the chapters we don't like, but you cant enforce it.
You can try to educate them that peace and love is better, but the other chapters are still in there.
In fairness the current approach of doing nothing seems the only workable option.
del mar said:
In fairness the current approach of doing nothing seems the only workable option.
In many ways, you're right. Had integration and education worked as they ought - a long and vexed issue - the situation may have evolved differently and, in the same way as Christianity has gradually (generally) ceded ground to contemporary morals and opinions, so might other religions, popular with immigrants.In response to Del Mar, i do think there is a 3rd option to all this. As we've seen with chaps like Maajid Nawaz, there are those in the faith who appreciate and enjoy a lot of the progressive ideals the west has come to champion but still wishes to be a man of faith, as such a kind of enlightenment-esque Islam is being fostered in their minds. These people require protection from their own who try to tar them at every turn, who kick up a massive fuss over the posting of stick figures, going to strip clubs or god forbid working closely with the government to try and head off extremism in the more shut off sides of the Muslim community.
There are also the minority sects of Islam itself, who often face worse persecution than us kaffir in predominantly Muslim countries, groups like the Ahmadiyya. Can you remember the shopkeeper stabbed by the bradford taxi driving sunni? Driven to do it by his hardline following of the religion, bringing religious sectarian conflict to the UK. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable here, i feel there wasn't enough emphasis given to that story and people forgot about the implications of seeing religious disputes from half the world away getting into a country that is supposed to be an open and accepting society.
Protection and the support of these kinds of people are a way of bringing the religion to a more enlightened future. The detractors to these groups and types of movement are quite happy to post the most vile bulls
t on facebook and twitter, often giving the whole "SUPPORTED BY ZIONIST AND JEWS!!" which is sadly what you see in regards to Nawaz quite a lot. Often these views even making it onto talking points of TV interviews, we get to hear the deep seated hatred of jews on fking TV being given by none other than fking "Community leaders" and supposed scholars. Taking a side here and supporting the reformers and punishing their detractors is the only way to have Islam in the west in my view.
There are also the minority sects of Islam itself, who often face worse persecution than us kaffir in predominantly Muslim countries, groups like the Ahmadiyya. Can you remember the shopkeeper stabbed by the bradford taxi driving sunni? Driven to do it by his hardline following of the religion, bringing religious sectarian conflict to the UK. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable here, i feel there wasn't enough emphasis given to that story and people forgot about the implications of seeing religious disputes from half the world away getting into a country that is supposed to be an open and accepting society.
Protection and the support of these kinds of people are a way of bringing the religion to a more enlightened future. The detractors to these groups and types of movement are quite happy to post the most vile bulls
t on facebook and twitter, often giving the whole "SUPPORTED BY ZIONIST AND JEWS!!" which is sadly what you see in regards to Nawaz quite a lot. Often these views even making it onto talking points of TV interviews, we get to hear the deep seated hatred of jews on fking TV being given by none other than fking "Community leaders" and supposed scholars. Taking a side here and supporting the reformers and punishing their detractors is the only way to have Islam in the west in my view.Trabi601 said:
danllama said:
Trabi601 said:
Trouble is, many of these lone attackers are just 'mentalists' looking for a cause to legitimise their actions. If it wasn't Islam, it would be something else that could be conveniently hooked into on the Internet. This is what makes them so difficult to stop.
How long will you keep on telling yourself that? You do realise how absurd it sounds, at this point?MrBrightSi said:
In response to Del Mar, i do think there is a 3rd option to all this. As we've seen with chaps like Maajid Nawaz, there are those in the faith who appreciate and enjoy a lot of the progressive ideals the west has come to champion but still wishes to be a man of faith, as such a kind of enlightenment-esque Islam is being fostered in their minds. These people require protection from their own who try to tar them at every turn, who kick up a massive fuss over the posting of stick figures, going to strip clubs or god forbid working closely with the government to try and head off extremism in the more shut off sides of the Muslim community.
There are also the minority sects of Islam itself, who often face worse persecution than us kaffir in predominantly Muslim countries, groups like the Ahmadiyya. Can you remember the shopkeeper stabbed by the bradford taxi driving sunni? Driven to do it by his hardline following of the religion, bringing religious sectarian conflict to the UK. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable here, i feel there wasn't enough emphasis given to that story and people forgot about the implications of seeing religious disputes from half the world away getting into a country that is supposed to be an open and accepting society.
Protection and the support of these kinds of people are a way of bringing the religion to a more enlightened future. The detractors to these groups and types of movement are quite happy to post the most vile bullst on facebook and twitter, often giving the whole "SUPPORTED BY ZIONIST AND JEWS!!" which is sadly what you see in regards to Nawaz quite a lot. Often these views even making it onto talking points of TV interviews, we get to hear the deep seated hatred of jews on fking TV being given by none other than fking "Community leaders" and supposed scholars. Taking a side here and supporting the reformers and punishing their detractors is the only way to have Islam in the west in my view.
We will only be helping the extremists by demonising all Muslims,tarring them all with the same brush.There are also the minority sects of Islam itself, who often face worse persecution than us kaffir in predominantly Muslim countries, groups like the Ahmadiyya. Can you remember the shopkeeper stabbed by the bradford taxi driving sunni? Driven to do it by his hardline following of the religion, bringing religious sectarian conflict to the UK. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable here, i feel there wasn't enough emphasis given to that story and people forgot about the implications of seeing religious disputes from half the world away getting into a country that is supposed to be an open and accepting society.
Protection and the support of these kinds of people are a way of bringing the religion to a more enlightened future. The detractors to these groups and types of movement are quite happy to post the most vile bulls
t on facebook and twitter, often giving the whole "SUPPORTED BY ZIONIST AND JEWS!!" which is sadly what you see in regards to Nawaz quite a lot. Often these views even making it onto talking points of TV interviews, we get to hear the deep seated hatred of jews on fking TV being given by none other than fking "Community leaders" and supposed scholars. Taking a side here and supporting the reformers and punishing their detractors is the only way to have Islam in the west in my view.Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
avinalarf said:
We will only be helping the extremists by demonising all Muslims,tarring them all with the same brush.
Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
fully agree and very good comment. Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
del mar said:
Say you do manage to convince the wider population that Islamic Terrorism / Violence is part of their Religious texts, what do we do then ?
You can't ban Islam in Europe.
You cant re write their Religious texts.
You can tell people to ignore the chapters we don't like, but you cant enforce it.
You can try to educate them that peace and love is better, but the other chapters are still in there.
In fairness the current approach of doing nothing seems the only workable option.
The same nasty stuff is in the Bible. We're just lucky that the overwhelming majority of Christians don't do Christianity properly. If they did, the murders and stonings would be literally everywhere.You can't ban Islam in Europe.
You cant re write their Religious texts.
You can tell people to ignore the chapters we don't like, but you cant enforce it.
You can try to educate them that peace and love is better, but the other chapters are still in there.
In fairness the current approach of doing nothing seems the only workable option.
Sadly, larger numbers of Muslims are taking their nasty book more and more seriously as a dominant guide to life instead of something to cherry-pick from and largely ignore.
SpeckledJim said:
The same nasty stuff is in the Bible. We're just lucky that the overwhelming majority of Christians don't do Christianity properly. If they did, the murders and stonings would be literally everywhere.
Sadly, larger numbers of Muslims are taking their nasty book more and more seriously as a dominant guide to life instead of something to cherry-pick from and largely ignore.
If I'm not mistaken, they believe that the Quran is literally the word of God.Sadly, larger numbers of Muslims are taking their nasty book more and more seriously as a dominant guide to life instead of something to cherry-pick from and largely ignore.
If you're a true believer, the Quran is THE authority on how to live your life. How can you defy the word of God himself?!
amusingduck said:
If I'm not mistaken, they believe that the Quran is literally the word of God.
If you're a true believer, the Quran is THE authority on how to live your life. How can you defy the word of God himself?!
The Orthodox Jews and Christians also believe that the Old Testament is literally the Word of God.If you're a true believer, the Quran is THE authority on how to live your life. How can you defy the word of God himself?!
However the vast majority have succeeded in adjusting their lifestyle whilst observing their religion and do not practice the more extreme of the 613 commandments so to fit in with a more enlightened viewpoint that more reflects living in the 21st century.
avinalarf said:
The Orthodox Jews and Christians also believe that the Old Testament is literally the Word of God.
However the vast majority have succeeded in adjusting their lifestyle whilst observing their religion and do not practice the more extreme of the 613 commandments so to fit in with a more enlightened viewpoint that more reflects living in the 21st century.
I just can't understand how somebody could literally believe that a document is the word of God, then ignore the sections they disagree with. The arrogance is astounding. You know better than God?!However the vast majority have succeeded in adjusting their lifestyle whilst observing their religion and do not practice the more extreme of the 613 commandments so to fit in with a more enlightened viewpoint that more reflects living in the 21st century.
Matthew 5:48 states, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Luke 6:36 states, "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
In Ephesians 5, they are told by Paul to "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children".
The believer is also advised to follow the ways of Jesus, notably in 1 Corinthians 11:1: "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."
It seems clear enough. I have written the rules you must live by. You must follow these rules.
Are you really a believer if you discard the bits that are inconvenient? It all seems so futile.
I can't reconcile the two simultaneous positions of "This is the word of God. It must be observed." and "Except that one... and that..".
Maybe I'll never get it. Maybe you have to be religious to get it.
amusingduck said:
avinalarf said:
The Orthodox Jews and Christians also believe that the Old Testament is literally the Word of God.
However the vast majority have succeeded in adjusting their lifestyle whilst observing their religion and do not practice the more extreme of the 613 commandments so to fit in with a more enlightened viewpoint that more reflects living in the 21st century.
I just can't understand how somebody could literally believe that a document is the word of God, then ignore the sections they disagree with. The arrogance is astounding. You know better than God?!However the vast majority have succeeded in adjusting their lifestyle whilst observing their religion and do not practice the more extreme of the 613 commandments so to fit in with a more enlightened viewpoint that more reflects living in the 21st century.
Matthew 5:48 states, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Luke 6:36 states, "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
In Ephesians 5, they are told by Paul to "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children".
The believer is also advised to follow the ways of Jesus, notably in 1 Corinthians 11:1: "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."
It seems clear enough. I have written the rules you must live by. You must follow these rules.
Are you really a believer if you discard the bits that are inconvenient? It all seems so futile.
I can't reconcile the two simultaneous positions of "This is the word of God. It must be observed." and "Except that one... and that..".
Maybe I'll never get it. Maybe you have to be religious to get it.
Most people, most Christians, most Muslims, most atheists are equally selfish and greedy and clearly aren't thinking about St Peter's Golden Register of Glory.
St Peter:
"OK - it's a new Ford Focus for £16,000, or you can install clean running water in a blighted African village you'll never visit, but your 16 grand will literally save lives."
Almost every Christian: "Ford Focus, please"
St Peter: (gets out red pen, starts flicking through large print-out)
avinalarf said:
We will only be helping the extremists by demonising all Muslims,tarring them all with the same brush.
Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
What is an extremist view though ?Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
avinalarf said:
We will only be helping the extremists by demonising all Muslims,tarring them all with the same brush.
Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
It won't happen, they don't want to.Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
Also, there is the demand for locals to compromise. f
k that. Why should they?Mothersruin said:
avinalarf said:
We will only be helping the extremists by demonising all Muslims,tarring them all with the same brush.
Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
It won't happen, they don't want to.Doing so will only encourage the Muslim "community" to close in on itself and allow the extremists to spread their medieval bile.
We do have a serious problem and it will need a strong,determined,intelligent response to go towards solving it.
There must be zero tolerance of extremist views and extremely harsh penalties whilst at the same time assuring the majority of peaceful Muslims that they are welcome to live amongst us whilst they fully respect our culture and sensibilities.
It will require the majority of Muslims and their religious leaders to become much more active in promoting integration into the "western" culture they have chosen to live in and to recognise that many of their religious/cultural customs are alien and increase division and cause resentment and fear.
Integration is a two way street and it can only succeed if the immigrants recognise this.
Also, there is the demand for locals to compromise. f
k that. Why should they?This has obviously become an extremely controversial subject with many entrenched opinions.
IMO it is helpful to voice those different viewpoints as long as it is done in a "civilised" fashion.
It is understandable that some people feel threatened and display resentment when they perceive that an influx of immigrants "alters" their local environment.
However we are where we are.
It must also be noted that where the majority of immigrants have successfully integrated it has had its benefits.
As an example .....my Saturday night curry....good looking Polish birds......cheap and reliable Slovakian plumbers........
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