Can we talk about Germany for a bit?

[Liokault]

Zod said:

Sam All said:

The apologists will tell you that once we have imported these people, they will limit themselves to 2 children.

Wonder how big the average family size is in Bradford, Luton, Southall, Slough...

More than wars. I blame the Internet

"these people" meaning brown people.

The birth rate in the UK at 1.92 is below the replacement rate of 2.075. The non-white population was 12.9% according to the 2011 census. The birth rate to non-British-born mothers is barely above the replacement rate at 2.09. Even if the next generation outbreeds the white population by that huge margin, the Muslim majority that hysterical idiots fear is centuries away. They won't though, as statistic show that the non-white birthrate drops in subsequent generations.

And yet , as a kid 30 years ago, I didn't know any Muslims and there were none in my school.

Now, I know tons of Muslims. Clearly this increase isn't just dynamics of birth rate.

[TTwiggy]

Liokault said:

And yet , as a kid 30 years ago, I didn't know any Muslims and there were none in my school.

Now, I know tons of Muslims. Clearly this increase isn't just dynamics of birth rate.

Assuming that you are 'middle-class', live in a 'middle-class' area and have a 'professional' job I would say that it might be indicative of Muslims moving up the social ladder with successive generations.

I grew up in a middle-class suburb of London. There were maybe 2 Muslim kids in my primary school and perhaps 20 in my secondary school (I went to school between 1976 and 1989). I would imagine those numbers are very much higher now, for the reason I've given above.

[irocfan]

Adam Ansel said:

Sam All said:

Car explodes in Berlin.

Surely not the religion of peace again.
This is the first attack since Ivory Coast and Ankara. Looks like they took Monday off.

seriously? It could be anything, if you're going to use a car bomb as a terror weapon you'd make damn sure it'd destroy more than just a single car and driver. I'd have thought it's far more likely to be gang/jealous spouse related

[Liokault]

TTwiggy said:

Liokault said:

And yet , as a kid 30 years ago, I didn't know any Muslims and there were none in my school.

Now, I know tons of Muslims. Clearly this increase isn't just dynamics of birth rate.

Assuming that you are 'middle-class', live in a 'middle-class' area and have a 'professional' job I would say that it might be indicative of Muslims moving up the social ladder with successive generations.

I grew up in a middle-class suburb of London. There were maybe 2 Muslim kids in my primary school and perhaps 20 in my secondary school (I went to school between 1976 and 1989). I would imagine those numbers are very much higher now, for the reason I've given above.

It could be that (I grew up in a very working class area and now live in a very middle class area) or it could be that as a kid the Muslim population was around 1% and now it's 5%......yeah either that or social mobility.


I dropped off my daughter this morning to a friend who takes her to school, Muslim woman who regrets marrying a guy from Pakistan,yet all the signes are that this is the fate of her daughter.

[del mar]

TTwiggy said:

Assuming that you are 'middle-class', live in a 'middle-class' area and have a 'professional' job I would say that it might be indicative of Muslims moving up the social ladder with successive generations.

I grew up in a middle-class suburb of London. There were maybe 2 Muslim kids in my primary school and perhaps 20 in my secondary school (I went to school between 1976 and 1989). I would imagine those numbers are very much higher now, for the reason I've given above.

I have driven through Tower Hamlets nigh on every day for the last 15 years, and the reason it now resembles another country is due to Social Mobility ?

[TTwiggy]

del mar said:

I have driven through Tower Hamlets nigh on every day for the last 15 years, and the reason it now resembles another country is due to Social Mobility ?

Er... yes. It's just the opposite of the sort of mobility that has seen some Muslim families move into more affluent areas. While some will move up the ladder, others will get stuck and the most recent arrivals will be drawn to areas where it's cheap and there's 'familiar' faces.

This stuff isn't complex. Anyone might think that people had a particular issue with Muslims – I'm sure that's not the case.

[Sam All]

TTwiggy said:

This stuff isn't complex. Anyone might think that people had a particular issue with Muslims – I'm sure that's not the case.

Simple stuff -Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK and not by conversion. Cameron has spoken about issues with Islam so many times. Wonder why.

[TTwiggy]

Sam All said:

Simple stuff -Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK and not by conversion. Cameron has spoken about issues with Islam so many times. Wonder why.

Nobody would deny that there are issues surrounding EXTREME interpretations of Islam. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the best way of combating it is to demostrate to people that embracing a more secular society and seeking a wider education tends to lead to an improvement in one's quality of life - rather than demonising a whole group of people for the actions of a tiny minority.

[Hugo a Gogo]

Hugh Jarse said:

There are no civil wars in countries with 2.2 children.

They have 8 children per family which means they will be perpetually facing youth unemployment and disenfranchisement and thus perpetually in civil war of one form or another.

CIA world factbook says Syria birthrate was 2.35 per woman, in 2012

not sure what the birthrate in Yugoslavia was in 1991

I imagine it's slightly lower in Syria now, simply because more people are being killed rather than having babies

where do you get 8 from?

Hugh Jarse said:

Unrestrained population growth from 4 to 24 million in two generations was the fuel for the Syrian civil war. That's a big change for a country that is predominantly dry arid desert.

with thousands of acres of irrigated farmland

ever heard of the fertile crescent?

population was 17 million before the war, last time it was 4 million was mid 50s. 60 years ago

[Hugh Jarse]

Syrian population spike:
You've deliberately doctored my quote, the 8 (7.7) was for Afghanistan. Ten people per AVERAGE family, how will that end?
Below is the pyramid of Syria, perhaps people are having 2.2 children in the last five years (or due to civil war), but the population spike that caused the war is plain to see, its a delayed time bomb.
I agree Syria was a beautiful country with incredible history and was a diverse and tolerant society fifty years ago.
Have faith in those people to rebuild the country and EU should help with that.

Balkan civil war:
The birthrate in Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians and Albania was one of the triggers of the Yugoslav war.
The Kosovo Albanians have now taken over in Kosovo so they got what they wanted for the ever growing population. Or did they? - the Albanians are still coming northwards as one of the largest migration groups. Why? High birth rates.


Below is Yemen, currently experiencing civil war, have a look at the pyramid.

Cause of war solved in one picture, young men with nowt to do and no jobs.
All have the right to Asylum in Europe if they could physically get here, because their country is undeniably unsafe.
Instead of people moaning and saying "war is bad" we should fixate harder on "the causes of war are bad", then we could eliminate war. Every time someone stacks something daft on one side, then there is a polarising effect on the other side of the scale. 20% people now vote nationalist in Germany and Sweden and growing. Worrying, where will it end?

[danllama]

del mar said:

I have driven through Tower Hamlets nigh on every day for the last 15 years, and the reason it now resembles another country is due to Social Mobility ?

You do have to laugh don't you? What planet are these people on?

Ilford was quite welcoming 15-20 years ago. And now?

[br d]

TTwiggy said:

del mar said:

I have driven through Tower Hamlets nigh on every day for the last 15 years, and the reason it now resembles another country is due to Social Mobility ?

Er... yes. It's just the opposite of the sort of mobility that has seen some Muslim families move into more affluent areas. While some will move up the ladder, others will get stuck and the most recent arrivals will be drawn to areas where it's cheap and there's 'familiar' faces.

This stuff isn't complex. Anyone might think that people had a particular issue with Muslims – I'm sure that's not the case.

I've worked in Tower hamlets for many years for Council departments including Housing. I have been told by several Housing Officers (including a Bangladeshi officer) who were directly involved in the lettings process that the large increase of Bangladeshi families living in the Borough was largely a result of child numbers. When families began arriving with 4, 5 or 6 children they had to be moved up the housing list, it just isn't practical to put families this large in temporary accommodation or B and B's.

This was of course very unfair on local residents (from any community) who may have been waiting years for a property but it's pretty hard to see what other option the lettings could have taken.

[Hugo a Gogo]

the whole 'birthrate explosion' idea is a red herring, just as it was when it was used against Irish catholics 150 years ago

try watching this
http://www.upworthy.com/a-3-minute-totally-fascina...

[Zod]

Hugo a Gogo said:

the whole 'birthrate explosion' idea is a red herring, just as it was when it was used against Irish catholics 150 years ago

try watching this
http://www.upworthy.com/a-3-minute-totally-fascina...

Come on; that is far too well reasoned for this thread.

[Zod]

br d said:

I've worked in Tower hamlets for many years for Council departments including Housing. I have been told by several Housing Officers (including a Bangladeshi officer) who were directly involved in the lettings process that the large increase of Bangladeshi families living in the Borough was largely a result of child numbers. When families began arriving with 4, 5 or 6 children they had to be moved up the housing list, it just isn't practical to put families this large in temporary accommodation or B and B's.

This was of course very unfair on local residents (from any community) who may have been waiting years for a property but it's pretty hard to see what other option the lettings could have taken.

So no evidence, just anecdotal.

[br d]

Zod said:

So no evidence, just anecdotal.

Yes, that's why I said "I've been told by several Housing Officers..." rather than "The following is factual."

If you want to strip all the anecdotal posts from every thread on PH there's not going to be much left!

[Hugo a Gogo]

I dunno, my mate down the pub said there was loads of factual stuff on here...

[br d]

Hugo a Gogo said:

I dunno, my mate down the pub said there was loads of factual stuff on here...

And that's gospel guv'nor.

[Hugh Jarse]

Hugo a Gogo said:

the whole 'birthrate explosion' idea is a red herring, just as it was when it was used against Irish catholics 150 years ago

try watching this
http://www.upworthy.com/a-3-minute-totally-fascina...

Rosling uses Ethopia as an example, in the countryside (coincidentally the Muslim bit Somaliland) still has very high birth rates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia

Population in Ethiopia[150]
Year Million Difference
1950 18.4 –
1960 22.5 4.1
1970 29.0 6.5
1980 35.4 6.4
1990 48.3 12.9
2000 65.6 17.3
2010 82.9 17.3
2013 93.8 >10.9

Maybe you dont understand population pyramids, even if tomorrow everybody had 2.2 kids, the population would still go up at least twice over one life time, because the pyramid changes to a rectangle over time. By the way the 2.2 thing will never happen so the population will keep going up, not to mention people living longer.

wiki "The large Muslim population in the northern Afar region has resulted in a Muslim separatist movement called the Islamic State of Afaria seeking a sharia-compliant constitution.[164]" More paradise and war coming.

[Bring on the clowns]

gruffalo said:

Good post.

Yes quite. Have another virtual vote!