Primary School Visit to Mosque
Discussion
I personally don't think in this occasion the mosque is trying to impose anything on anyone.
If you wish to visit another place (especially of religious faith) you should be able to tolerate the restrictions. Restrictions which only applies during the visit and nothing more.
It doesn't take too much to learn to respect other cultures, however if you are unable to do that or unhappy to do so I would suggest speaking to the school teacher for more information or better yet just don't participate in the activity.
edit: Removed a comment which I think is not appropriate.
If you wish to visit another place (especially of religious faith) you should be able to tolerate the restrictions. Restrictions which only applies during the visit and nothing more.
It doesn't take too much to learn to respect other cultures, however if you are unable to do that or unhappy to do so I would suggest speaking to the school teacher for more information or better yet just don't participate in the activity.
edit: Removed a comment which I think is not appropriate.
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 16th January 00:06
crazy about cars said:
I personally don't think in this occasion the mosque is trying to impose anything or anyone.
If you wish to visit another place (especially of religious faith) you should be able to tolerate the restrictions. Restrictions which only applies during the visit and nothing more.
I don't see why the mosque has to bend any rules on this occasion. If I'm a naturalist can I request you bend your rules so I can be in your house in the nude in front of your whole family?
It doesn't take too much to learn to respect other cultures, however if you are unable to do that or unhappy to do so I would suggest speaking to the school teacher for more information or better yet just don't participate in the activity.
Taking in kids of a very impressionable age and telling them that "this is the final word of God" .. isn't a good thing.If you wish to visit another place (especially of religious faith) you should be able to tolerate the restrictions. Restrictions which only applies during the visit and nothing more.
I don't see why the mosque has to bend any rules on this occasion. If I'm a naturalist can I request you bend your rules so I can be in your house in the nude in front of your whole family?
It doesn't take too much to learn to respect other cultures, however if you are unable to do that or unhappy to do so I would suggest speaking to the school teacher for more information or better yet just don't participate in the activity.
poo at Paul's said:
Evanivitch said:
So you'd deprive your child the opportunity to learn about a religion for themselves? You'd rather impose your own prejudices on them from an early age?
a) I see it as protecting her. b) Why should I let strangers 60 miles away impose "THEIR" prejudices on her? (BTW, it isn't Rotheram!?)
I'm not saying she cannot learn about the religion, in school as she does already and these kids from the other school already do. And she will make her own mind up about it one day.
We are not religious at all in our house.
t, she will form an adverse opinion of the religion. If she thinks it is necessarily respectful she will form a different opinion. She's old enough to to think for herself. Sometimes her thoughts will coincide with yours and sometimes they won't. You can't hope to protect her from independent thought forever.
Speak to her beforehand, then trust her.
If I had kids I wouldn't inflict that on them.
I would teach them that my thoughts on religion are that it's all bks but they're welcome to make their own minds up when they're old enough to question it for themselves (I challenged my religious upbringing when I reached 14-15yrs old and realised it was a load of old guff).
I would like to see R.E. removed from education entirely and taught as a minor part of other lessons such as the impact of religion on geographical areas throughout history and the reason why so many people killed each other over which of their imaginary friends was the right one etc.
Religions do not deserve respect but I do think it's important to teach children to be able to question for themselves as to whether they also decide it's a load of old bks too. Actually thinking about it I'd have no issue if I had a kid and they came out as gay but I'd be bitterly disappointed if they decided to become a muslim.
I would teach them that my thoughts on religion are that it's all b
ks but they're welcome to make their own minds up when they're old enough to question it for themselves (I challenged my religious upbringing when I reached 14-15yrs old and realised it was a load of old guff).I would like to see R.E. removed from education entirely and taught as a minor part of other lessons such as the impact of religion on geographical areas throughout history and the reason why so many people killed each other over which of their imaginary friends was the right one etc.
Religions do not deserve respect but I do think it's important to teach children to be able to question for themselves as to whether they also decide it's a load of old b
ks too. Actually thinking about it I'd have no issue if I had a kid and they came out as gay but I'd be bitterly disappointed if they decided to become a muslim.Greg66 said:
poo at Paul's said:
Evanivitch said:
So you'd deprive your child the opportunity to learn about a religion for themselves? You'd rather impose your own prejudices on them from an early age?
a) I see it as protecting her. b) Why should I let strangers 60 miles away impose "THEIR" prejudices on her? (BTW, it isn't Rotheram!?)
I'm not saying she cannot learn about the religion, in school as she does already and these kids from the other school already do. And she will make her own mind up about it one day.
We are not religious at all in our house.
t, she will form an adverse opinion of the religion. If she thinks it is necessarily respectful she will form a different opinion. She's old enough to to think for herself. Sometimes her thoughts will coincide with yours and sometimes they won't. You can't hope to protect her from independent thought forever.
Speak to her beforehand, then trust her.
If she is 6, she just stopped watching Dora the Explorer.
crazy about cars said:
I personally don't think in this occasion the mosque is trying to impose anything on anyone.
If you wish to visit another place (especially of religious faith) you should be able to tolerate the restrictions. Restrictions which only applies during the visit and nothing more.
It doesn't take too much to learn to respect other cultures, however if you are unable to do that or unhappy to do so I would suggest speaking to the school teacher for more information or better yet just don't participate in the activity.
edit: Removed a comment which I think is not appropriate.
Unless of course, toleration is of the intolerable. You are aware that Islam considers any girl showing signs of puberty are fare game, don't you? Pakistan has declared an age minimum for marriage as 'UnIslamic'.If you wish to visit another place (especially of religious faith) you should be able to tolerate the restrictions. Restrictions which only applies during the visit and nothing more.
It doesn't take too much to learn to respect other cultures, however if you are unable to do that or unhappy to do so I would suggest speaking to the school teacher for more information or better yet just don't participate in the activity.
edit: Removed a comment which I think is not appropriate.
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 16th January 00:06
But then, what do you expect when Mohammed himself took an 8 year old as his bride? I'll give him the fact that he waited until she was 12 to consummate the marriage. The dark ages are alive and well.
If I had a child I'd be happy for them to go.
I think the dress thing is over the top. I've seen similar trips organised locally and the Mosques did not require anything like that, I suspect it's the school being over-sensitive.
Some of the children will probably be Muslims themselves as well, I think it would make for an exciting day out and when the children are older there will be less 'fear of the unknown'.
I think the dress thing is over the top. I've seen similar trips organised locally and the Mosques did not require anything like that, I suspect it's the school being over-sensitive.
Some of the children will probably be Muslims themselves as well, I think it would make for an exciting day out and when the children are older there will be less 'fear of the unknown'.
Troubleatmill said:
Taking in kids of a very impressionable age and telling them that "this is the final word of God" .. isn't a good thing.
I have kids too at the same age bracket. They have a subject called "Religious Studies" at school. From what I have seen this is not meant to impose any "final word of God" but rather for them to learn about other religions and form their own opinion about them; something I feel that this trip is trying to achieve. Curious, if this was a trip to say a church would you have the same opinion?
Greg66 said:
Do you not trust her to make up her mind now? If she thinks covering her hair is st, she will form an adverse opinion of the religion. If she thinks it is necessarily respectful she will form a different opinion.
She's old enough to to think for herself. Sometimes her thoughts will coincide with yours and sometimes they won't. You can't hope to protect her from independent thought forever.
Speak to her beforehand, then trust her.
But she doesn't need to experience the discrimination to learn about it. t, she will form an adverse opinion of the religion. If she thinks it is necessarily respectful she will form a different opinion. She's old enough to to think for herself. Sometimes her thoughts will coincide with yours and sometimes they won't. You can't hope to protect her from independent thought forever.
Speak to her beforehand, then trust her.
The sad reality is that it's not ok to discriminate on grounds of gender in the UK, so why should she be subjected to it. Because that says to her it is ok, and my own opinion is, it isn't! She is too young to understand it goes a fair bit deeper than covering their heads and legs in the Mosque!
If it were my daughter with the letter, and I decided against it, I would explain why.
crazy about cars said:
Troubleatmill said:
Taking in kids of a very impressionable age and telling them that "this is the final word of God" .. isn't a good thing.
I have kids too at the same age bracket. They have a subject called "Religious Studies" at school. From what I have seen this is not meant to impose any "final word of God" but rather for them to learn about other religions and form their own opinion about them; something I feel that this trip is trying to achieve. Curious, if this was a trip to say a church would you have the same opinion?
Edit: Religious types just seem to smile with glee at the prospect of very young impressionable minds walking through their doors. Wonder why???
Edited by Troubleatmill on Saturday 16th January 00:37
Troubleatmill said:
Taking a 6 year old kid... yup.
Edit: Religious types just seem to smile with glee at the prospect of very young impressionable minds walking through their doors. Wonder why???
Fair enough Edit: Religious types just seem to smile with glee at the prospect of very young impressionable minds walking through their doors. Wonder why???
Edited by Troubleatmill on Saturday 16th January 00:37
I must admit I'm not a religious person myself (don't go to the Church every Sunday) but I don't object to my children learning about other religions or cultures whatever their ages are, including trips to religious places where restrictions are applied. If there are such trips I'll leave the decision to my kids and if they are happy to attend with regards to whatever restrictions that apply, so am I.
Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 16th January 00:48
I really am amazed how paranoid and hysterical this thread is - No-one on a school trip is going to be brainwashed, radicalise, raped or shot! It will be a tour of a building and some information about how a group of normal humans worship their deity of choice. There is also a dress code.
I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
Edited by Silver Smudger on Saturday 16th January 03:00
Evanivitch said:
So you'd deprive your child the opportunity to learn about a religion for themselves? You'd rather impose your own prejudices on them from an early age?
In preference to "learning"about it from some jihadist imam and blinkered "progressive" teachers, yes.Sounds like a potential opportunity for straight out proselytising and the woodland trip to make anyone who objects miss out is very cynical. I would be surprised if they didn't also give the girls headscarves when they were there.
I would be tackling it head on myself and simply refusing the mosque part on political and religious grounds and forcing the school to say if the woodland trip is conditional on the religious indoctrination.
Better still if you have the time and interest yourself, dig deeper. What sort of mosque? Sunni, Shia? What school? Who funds it? Who will they meet? And what exactly will they be taught about Islam?
My bet is that the teacher has no idea.
Just as you would learn something very different about Christianity from a southern Baptist as compared to a Roman Catholic so it is with Islam.
Edited by AJS- on Saturday 16th January 03:41
Here's some footage from an enriching mosque trip in the US
https://youtu.be/Z7-I9Qp3d4Y
Yes your kids too could be praying to Allah, boys in front girls behind without your knowledge or permission. All just part of the learning experience of course.
This apparently caused some controversy and the school later apologised. But the US is rigorously secular by design.
https://youtu.be/Z7-I9Qp3d4Y
Yes your kids too could be praying to Allah, boys in front girls behind without your knowledge or permission. All just part of the learning experience of course.
This apparently caused some controversy and the school later apologised. But the US is rigorously secular by design.
Silver Smudger said:
I really am amazed how paranoid and hysterical this thread is - No-one on a school trip is going to be brainwashed, radicalise, raped or shot! It will be a tour of a building and some information about how a group of normal humans worship their deity of choice. There is also a dress code.
I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
Exactly this. I would be quite happy for my daughter to go on a trip like this. Learning about all faiths has to be good especially in the current climate,I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
Edited by Silver Smudger on Saturday 16th January 03:00
Silver Smudger said:
I really am amazed how paranoid and hysterical this thread is - No-one on a school trip is going to be brainwashed, radicalise, raped or shot! It will be a tour of a building and some information about how a group of normal humans worship their deity of choice. There is also a dress code.
I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
I agree, there seems to be a huge amount of fear in these pages.I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
Edited by Silver Smudger on Saturday 16th January 03:00
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