Primary School Visit to Mosque

[poo at Paul's]

Alpinestars said:

Where did I justify the sexist policy? I pointed out the fact that girls and boys face a number of facts that show them they are different to each other. So to worry about a religious establishment making a distinction is disingenuous.

Ahh, so you denounce the sexism then....?
On this proposed school trip or within your religion in general?
Do you think these 8 year old girls should have to cover their heads and legs up?
Why DID you bring up same sex schools, again?

[poo at Paul's]

GavinPearson said:

We visited Leicester Cathedral recently and saw the tomb of Richard III. We learnt when he lived, who he was, how he died, and how the team at Leicester University proved with DNA testing that the skeleton was in fact him.

What we didn't learn was the entire philosophy of Christianity.

My son knows that Santa Claus does not exist and neither does the Easter bunny. He is 10.

If he went to a Mosque he would learn about what it looked like inside and out but his comprehension of the religion would be rudimentary at best.

But with correct supervision I see no real harm in doing that. It helps explain where certain classmates go at the weekend and what they do there.

When he (or any other child for that matter) gets to the point that he starts wanting to know about current affairs and trying to understand who the groups are and what they stand for the memories of the visit will all come flooding back.

My class had C of E, Roman Catholic, Jewish and Muslim kids in it and I was perfectly capable of figuring out who was likeable and who wasn't. I was also able to conclude that fasting wouldn't work for me and I wouldn't want to wear religious clothing. I visited a Mormon church and it didn't convert me. But they seemed to be very nice people.

Kids who go to a Mosque should be equally able to take all the facts in and decide for themselves over time what their position is on that religion. But I also believe that the facts should be presented as "this is what they teach in this Mosque / this is what they do".
Go on the visit and ensure that they stick to that script.

But you ignore the dress requirements for the girls on this trip. Is that ok?
Obviously for your son it wasn't an issue, but if you had a daughter would it be ok?

[poo at Paul's]

Challo said:

Hold your horses. I think we need to clarify who made the request that the girls maybe asked to cover their heads with a scarf as its clear from other examples in the thread that school children have not had to in the past. Is it the Mosque thats asked or is it the school??

Completely false to think that all muslim men will have sexual thoughts about a 8 year old girl just because she hasn't got a head scarf on. Talk about a blinkered view.

How come not all women who are muslim wear some sort of head scarf then????

I agree it needs to be clarified, but whoever is deciding, surely it is completely wrong!? Whether it be the Mosque or the school's policy, for parents of 8 year old girls at a C of E school, I would imagine it IS a big deal. After all, that is the question you asked further up the thread.

IMHO if it is the Mosque saying that, the school should not be going. If it is the school, well I suspect they have a PC hat on toward showing respect to this other religion, and at the same time have dropped an enormous clanger by forgetting the respect they need to show toward the girls in their school.

[poo at Paul's]

TTwiggy said:

How did a thread about a school trip become a discussion on international terrorism and suicide bombings?... oh yes, silly me. MUSLIMS!!!!

I agree it is sad. But the usual suspects have taken it off track as they do the other similar threads.

AS the OP, this thread is pretty much about what may appear to be sexual discrimination. It's not about brainwashing kids, radicalising them or foreign policy or terrorism.

These are kids of 7-9 years old with girls being asked to "cover up" for an educational visit to a Mosque. Most of us agree that should not be necessary for various reasons, not least their age.

I'd have thought we would all agree, pretty much, that it is not on!

And yet 16 pages later we are on terrorism and foreign policy!!
It is all interesting stuff, freedom to express etc, but it has moved quite a way off topic now!

Although as OP I do appreciate everyone's contributions and opinions particularly those pertaining to the matter at hand.

[poo at Paul's]

From me, yes, absolutely.

The Catholic repeal is "relatively recently" I agree, but is still over 30 years ago.

And someone living in the 70's and working in the 80s and 90s, society has changed a HUGE amount in that time, certainly more than it did in 30 years up to 1983.

Hopefully, other religions such as Russian Orthodox will get the hint and catch up soon!

Edited by poo at Paul's on Wednesday 20th January 12:04

[poo at Paul's]

Digga said:

Really not sure what the fuss is about regarding head coverings.

If you go into a Sikh temple, for example, then both women and men are expected to cover their heads, and take their shoes off, sit on opposite sides of the room. It is customary and traditional - nothing more, nothing less.

I honestly cannot believe you don't get it?
The example you give is that BOTH genders have to abide by the same rules.

In this case it is only the girls!

This is 2016. Not the 1970s. and it was wrong in the 1970's also!!

[poo at Paul's]

Digga said:

t doesn't IME. When Mrs and I visited the Sultan Qaboos Grand Mosque in Muscat we both had to have full cover of arms and legs. It was only the headscarf that was an additional requirement for women.

Now I'm not saying there are bits of Islam and interpretations of it that I don't find misogynistic, or homophobic, but on this specific point I can't see too much.

So again, a woman must cover her head, but not the man..? Why do you think that is?

And of course, again, in this case, not your case, the girls have to wear trousers or "thick leggings" under their skirts. But the boys can wear whatever school uniform they wish, which would include shorts!! Mind you it in January so unlikely!!

So your wife has to wear a headscarf and you don't, and yet you don't see that as in any way sexist...? Did she have a crap hairdo that day? Of course not. It is because she is a woman! Surely you understand that?

I'm sure you do, but just don't care!!
And if your wife doesn't, fair enough. But some will, and it is completely wrong for a school to perpetuate it with an 8 year old.

Edited by poo at Paul's on Wednesday 20th January 16:45

[poo at Paul's]

Alpinestars said:

Have you got to the bottom of whether it's the school or mosque that's insisting on the dress code? And you do know some mosques require men to wear hats too? And men keep beards to appear more modest?

Not sure the boys are being asked to wear fake beards!!

Not clear as to whose policy, although I may be able to find out later tonight or tomorrow. My suspicion is the school being "too PC" or the Mosque misunderstanding the ages of the kids involved. Which is up to the school to get right and confirm.

Don't get me wrong, I feel the school is at fault here, regardless. because even if it is the Mosque who are insisting on it, the school, a C of E school, should tell them to do one and go elsewhere.

[poo at Paul's]

Digga said:

Personally, I don't see it exactly that way.

However, I do believe that parents are quite within their rights to refuse permission for children to visit and and every religious building and establishment and that they should face no consequences of so choosing. That's just my take on it.

Have you got kids?

Does the school not have a primary responsibility to their students and their rights and values?

Can you imagine the uproar if the letter was to another location, maybe nothing to do with religion, where they insisted that the black kids maybe covered their heads. Or perhaps kids in wheelchairs?

But because we all feel we have to pander to this particular religion, even when it is not at all required, some people think such sexism is perfectly fine.

You say as parents, they have a right to refuse and face no consequence, and I agree. However, this is a school trip paid for by the PTA, an organisation the parents will have contributed to. Why should their kids miss out on a school trip? Just because someone decides they need to discriminate against their daughter because she is a girl?

[poo at Paul's]

bhstewie said:

School already perpetuate things that are wrong and sexist.

I suspect many schools have dress codes that differentiate between boys and girls and enforce things on one or the other.

Try sending your 8 year old daughter to school with her hair cut too short or wearing boys shorts or many other things along those lines and I suspect you'd find they had something to say about it.

If your concern is truly about equality then treat all inequality equally, don't just treat it as an issue when Muslims do it and it affects your kids for a couple of hours - otherwise it may just come across as if your real issue isn't about sexism but is about Muslims.

Are you for real? (What's next, call me a racist?)
Let me spell it out AGAIN for you, so you can "get it".

1. It aint my kid. She does not go to this school, but some of her friends in our village do. So we are close to this and have seen the letter.
2. At my daughter's school, (and infact this one), they make particular steps toward gender equality, certainly at this age. The girls play football and rugby, both boys, girls and mixed versions. They play basketball, not netball, they play rounders. If this was my daughters school, I would think it unacceptable.
3. This is entirely to do with "sexism". They did not (nor would they have dared I suspect!) send out this form (which I have seen) asking a Muslim or a Jew to dress differently; nor a disabled person; nor a black child. And yet they DID ask the girls to dress differently; differently from their normal school uniform. So this is nothing to do with alleged discrimination on religious, disability, nor racial grounds. It is Sexism, pure and simple.
4. The only connection to Islam or Muslims that it has, is that it is their place of worship that is being visited in this case, and the rules "may have" been set (not clear by whom as yet), to satisfy or show respect to that particular religion.
5. But it is still "sexual discrimination", regardless of the motives, well meaning, PC, or not.
6. Had the letter been the same but was for a visit to a Russian Orthodox house of worship, (as eluded to earlier) my opinion would be identical, ie it is just not acceptable and it would be gender discrimination.

If you wish to ignore my clarification above, (yet again), and keep your head in the sand, as maybe sexism is something you accept in your day to day life, so be it. But you are completely and utterly wrong and I do not appreciate the allegation that my issue is with Muslims. Remember the school is not a Muslim school it is C of E, and it is they that have sent this letter.
Please stop questioning my motives for my opinions, I have made it very clear many times. If you continue, it may be seen as trolling which is against PH rules.

Edited by poo at Paul's on Wednesday 20th January 17:44

[poo at Paul's]

ruggedscotty said:

If it were me....

Id question how it came about - who made the suggestion that they visit a mosque.

The rules that they stipulate dont apply quite simply they are school kids - I would see it as forcing a particular set of requirements on the children and as such I would be thinking that it is a means to segregate and make us bow down to their teachings and religious beliefs. Im not into such malarkey and Id be giving them a wide berth.

It is wrong on so many levels that I would not know where to start and Id be questioning the motives of why they are visiting such an establishment. breaking barriers and knocking down prejudice ? like WTF - they re making the kids bow down to religious rubbish....

Marking the females as some how lower than the males - yeah - maybe in Saudi or the likes but not here women here fought for years to have equality and it aint going to be taking a backwards step just to aplease a minority.... id not encourage it.

Thanks. I share your opinion as you know. But also thanks for actually reading the thread and spotting the actual issue here. If you or anyone sees though the usual suspects' bluster, and sees this is about sexual discrimination and yet thinks it's ok, then I appreciate that opinion also. I am conscious some would think to worry about such things with kids of age 8 or so is being too "precious" .

TBH I am glad this is not my child involved I can see it being rather awkward to deal with it.