Primary School Visit to Mosque

[scenario8]

This thread went weird. If we're truly, honestly getting upset about this perceived discrimination by gender and at nothing else then we must recognise that boys and girls and men and women have differing rules placed upon them in all sorts of areas. Specifically in dress codes women are expected to be more "modest" across more areas of their bodies than men in pretty much any culture I can think of. I doubt you'd last long before being asked to leave a public swimming bath or gym if you were female and wore no top. Topless sunbathing in the local park? Not if you're female.

I think we're kidding ourselves if many in this thread are concentrating on the gender issue anyway.

Besides, before we even get upset let's get to the bottom of whose "rules" are being imposed.

[s3fella]

scenario8 said:

This thread went weird. If we're truly, honestly getting upset about this perceived discrimination by gender and at nothing else then we must recognise that boys and girls and men and women have differing rules placed upon them in all sorts of areas. Specifically in dress codes women are expected to be more "modest" across more areas of their bodies than men in pretty much any culture I can think of. .

So you are saying 8 years old girls in their school uniforms are not "modest" enough?

[s3fella]

TTwiggy said:

.... while I may not agree with the 'rules' as posted (maybe?!) by the mosque, it is their 'house' and therefore their 'rules'.

But is it?
Is this not the whole problem. As far as I see it, the building itself, ie the "house" is just geography!
This is the UK, 2016. Not anywhere else at any other time.

Now if you mean that there are apparent legal dispensations for religious houses, (all not just Mosques), that make it not illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender, that may make it legally ok (I ask the question as I really don't know).
But I am not sure the "their house their rules" would apply universally would it.
For example, in any religious or political gathering or "house" surely the rules on things like "inciting racial hatred" still apply? Even if all the people listening are "like minded".
So if those laws apply, it would appear "their house their rules" doesn't.

How about spousal abuse? Can a guy beat his wife under his own roof? Of course not. And neither, incidentally can a woman beat her husband, lest we pretend that never happens.

So why should a "religious house" be any different? It isn't, is it? The law applies universally, surely?
Now this is not necessarily a "legal issue" as such, although on matters of alleged discrimination, there can be some grey areas. Their House their rules is an interesting and valid argument, but where do you draw the line? Can a woman be verbally abused in a religious house? Can she be physically assaulted if she upsets someone by how she is dressed?

Personally, I would hope not. But maybe "their house their rules" means it is ok?
I don't want this to go off topic as this case appears far simpler, but my point is I am not sure the defence you quote holds water. Not when parents are entrusting the safety and wellbeing of their kids to a school or any school trip destination. Some may say that the rights of and responsibility toward an 8 year old kid should superceed any "building", location, or alleged "rules" of a faith.

[s3fella]

bhstewie said:

Sexism exists everywhere. There are tons of places with dress codes that treat men and women differently.

But that is irrelevant! There's tons of racism also, but if the letter had said "Black kids must wear a bobble hat", there would be universal outrage, of course.

But since it is "sexism", it seems to attract far less or indeed hardly any outrage. So why is that? Are women less important that black people? Or is it that we've become tolerant of various cultures and religions that allow sexism to be ingrained in people from an early age, so therefore "it's ok". we have to be tolerant?

I'd love to hear an update as to how this trip pans out. It sounds like a monumental fk up by the school tbqh.

[bitchstewie]

s3fella said:

bhstewie said:

Sexism exists everywhere. There are tons of places with dress codes that treat men and women differently.

But that is irrelevant! There's tons of racism also, but if the letter had said "Black kids must wear a bobble hat", there would be universal outrage, of course.

But since it is "sexism", it seems to attract far less or indeed hardly any outrage. So why is that? Are women less important that black people? Or is it that we've become tolerant of various cultures and religions that allow sexism to be ingrained in people from an early age, so therefore "it's ok". we have to be tolerant?

I'd love to hear an update as to how this trip pans out. It sounds like a monumental fk up by the school tbqh.

Tbh I agree with most of that and of course you're quite right in that everyone would condemn the bobble hat scenario.

Personally I'm not saying that the mosque having a different dress code for women is fine, simply that everyone has some kind of line at which something that isn't entirely right goes from not being worth getting too bothered about, to something worth being bothered about.

If covering up for a daytrip to a mosque is worth getting bothered about to the degree that some posters seem to, I'm curious where are all the threads are expressing their utter outage over far worse examples of sexism and discrimination?

That's where I'm struggling a little.

[scenario8]

s3fella said:

scenario8 said:

This thread went weird. If we're truly, honestly getting upset about this perceived discrimination by gender and at nothing else then we must recognise that boys and girls and men and women have differing rules placed upon them in all sorts of areas. Specifically in dress codes women are expected to be more "modest" across more areas of their bodies than men in pretty much any culture I can think of. .

So you are saying 8 years old girls in their school uniforms are not "modest" enough?

I'm saying what I said. Here's some more saying; 8 year old girls in their school uniforms are (on the whole) much more modestly dressed than their male equivalents. In Britain. In CofE schools. Further, in Britain in local authority authorised swimming pools 8 year old girls are forced to dress much more modestly than their male equivalents. Even in local authorities outside of Bradford. So that's boring old normal Britain imposing stricter rules on girls than boys. In 2016. And that's only about the dress codes that we're only getting upset about.

[ruggedscotty]

the whole thing is rank - the girls must be properly dressed.... primary pupils to be covered up as they are disgusting creatures liable to corrupt the pure divine subjects ?

this is the crux its a sexist and I am shocked at just how this is being allowed to happen in this country its blatant and its letting them brainwash us into to this being normal and acceptable.

Its not.

Any hiding of females as it corrupts the men smacks of trying to control everything but the actual problem If the guys are liable to act on seeing such gratuitous female form then there is a huge issue here that needs to addressed. Its sexism running wild and un checked.

The kids are dressed for school so should be deemed to be suitably dressed for the mosque. If not then rent a bus and lets go to the funpark as the mosque sounds like the wrong place to be taking these kids.

[TTwiggy]

ruggedscotty said:

the whole thing is rank - the girls must be properly dressed.... primary pupils to be covered up as they are disgusting creatures liable to corrupt the pure divine subjects ?

this is the crux its a sexist and I am shocked at just how this is being allowed to happen in this country its blatant and its letting them brainwash us into to this being normal and acceptable.

Its not.

Any hiding of females as it corrupts the men smacks of trying to control everything but the actual problem If the guys are liable to act on seeing such gratuitous female form then there is a huge issue here that needs to addressed. Its sexism running wild and un checked.

The kids are dressed for school so should be deemed to be suitably dressed for the mosque. If not then rent a bus and lets go to the funpark as the mosque sounds like the wrong place to be taking these kids.

From which fetid depths of your imagination are you channeling this st?

[Sam All]

TTwiggy said:

From which fetid depths of your imagination are you channeling this st?

Do you think this is genuine?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/19/salafis...

[TTwiggy]

Sam All said:

Do you think this is genuine?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/19/salafis...

Do you think it has any relevance to a school visit to a mosque?

[Sam All]

TTwiggy said:

Do you think it has any relevance to a school visit to a mosque?

For relevance, review the posts above yours I.e. Ruggedscotty & prior .

[ATG]

poo at Paul's said:

I agree it needs to be clarified, but whoever is deciding, surely it is completely wrong!? Whether it be the Mosque or the school's policy, for parents of 8 year old girls at a C of E school, I would imagine it IS a big deal. After all, that is the question you asked further up the thread.

IMHO if it is the Mosque saying that, the school should not be going. If it is the school, well I suspect they have a PC hat on toward showing respect to this other religion, and at the same time have dropped an enormous clanger by forgetting the respect they need to show toward the girls in their school.

What a load of ste.

[AJS-]

People seem to be very hung up on the headscarf. It's a simple reality that the expectations of how men and women dress are different for a whole lot of cultural and biological reasons, and according to place and occasion. It's one factor you have to weigh up. As the father of a girl I wouldn't be thrilled by it, but I would be more concerned with finding out what this mosque and this imam are about and what they want to tell these children about Islam.

The relevance of that nutcase in Cologne is a school trip to his mosque probably wouldn't include much that I would want my daughter exposed to.

[s3fella]

ATG said:

What a load of ste.

Why? I think he is spot on!
1. People on this thread that should know, ie Muslims, have stated that this dress code should not be necessary for kids of this age. That seems to be accepted now.
2. So, accepting that, why is it being stipulated?

It can only be two things.
1. The Mosque being over zealous or too regimented, in which case should a C of E school take their kids to this particular Mosque, rather than a more accepting and tolerant one? OR,
2. the school is being too "PC" and is thinking this is what they need to do to appease the Mosque, ie overcompensating and forgetting that they have a primary duty to treat all kids fairly in the first instance.

Far from "ste" it is completely rational and logical.

But please come up with an alternative explanation as to why this is being requested, we're all ears.

[0000]

I still wonder if it isn't being organised by someone on the PTA who's connected with the mosque, so it falls under a bit of both.

[TTwiggy]

Sam All said:

For relevance, review the posts above yours I.e. Ruggedscotty & prior .

You posted the link. The onus is on you to explain its relevance not on me to try to second guess your motive.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

TTwiggy said:

ruggedscotty said:

the whole thing is rank - the girls must be properly dressed.... primary pupils to be covered up as they are disgusting creatures liable to corrupt the pure divine subjects ?

this is the crux its a sexist and I am shocked at just how this is being allowed to happen in this country its blatant and its letting them brainwash us into to this being normal and acceptable.

Its not.

Any hiding of females as it corrupts the men smacks of trying to control everything but the actual problem If the guys are liable to act on seeing such gratuitous female form then there is a huge issue here that needs to addressed. Its sexism running wild and un checked.

The kids are dressed for school so should be deemed to be suitably dressed for the mosque. If not then rent a bus and lets go to the funpark as the mosque sounds like the wrong place to be taking these kids.

From which fetid depths of your imagination are you channeling this st?

Ruggedscotty seems to have hit the nail pretty firmly on the head.

[TTwiggy]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Ruggedscotty seems to have hit the nail pretty firmly on the head.

The big shiny nail of paranoid delusion?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

AJS- said:

People seem to be very hung up on the headscarf. It's a simple reality that the expectations of how men and women dress are different for a whole lot of cultural and biological reasons, and according to place and occasion.

And if those cultural reasons are based on sexism and misogyny, they need to be challenged. Not just accepted as "tradition".

[TTwiggy]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

AJS- said:

People seem to be very hung up on the headscarf. It's a simple reality that the expectations of how men and women dress are different for a whole lot of cultural and biological reasons, and according to place and occasion.

And if those cultural reasons are based on sexism and misogyny, they need to be challenged. Not just accepted as "tradition".

It comes to something when my old mate AJS is the voice of reason on an Islam thread! Still, it's encouraging to see so many crusading feminists on PH. There was me thinking it was all 'snakes with tits' around here