Primary School Visit to Mosque
Discussion
Twig
If you're going to be consistent then you have to start asking why it is that only boys have to wear ties, and only girls have to cover their chests for swimming, and a million other little details that evolved that way for one reason or another. Or you just accept that some private institutions have a certain dress code for their own reasons and if you want to visit them you should abide by it. Though yes, it would be interesting to know where this demand came from.
IMO the question should be what we hope the children will gain from this visit and how the mosque, imam and school are planning to achieve this, not a rather trivial detail.
TTwiggy
Don't worry, I'm not being reasonable at all, just my normal cantankerous self in a different direction!
And FWIW I'm not a feminist, and I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon as a way of getting at Muslims. There are much greater travesties against women's rights in many interpretations of Islam than asking women to wear a headscarf when visiting a mosque.
If you're going to be consistent then you have to start asking why it is that only boys have to wear ties, and only girls have to cover their chests for swimming, and a million other little details that evolved that way for one reason or another. Or you just accept that some private institutions have a certain dress code for their own reasons and if you want to visit them you should abide by it. Though yes, it would be interesting to know where this demand came from.
IMO the question should be what we hope the children will gain from this visit and how the mosque, imam and school are planning to achieve this, not a rather trivial detail.
TTwiggy
Don't worry, I'm not being reasonable at all, just my normal cantankerous self in a different direction!
And FWIW I'm not a feminist, and I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon as a way of getting at Muslims. There are much greater travesties against women's rights in many interpretations of Islam than asking women to wear a headscarf when visiting a mosque.
e21Mark said:
Why would a primary school feel a need to appease a mosque?
We went of a trip to a Lullingstone Villa. Was that to appease the Romans?
Primary school kids could probably teach the grown ups a few things around this.
This isn't appeasement. Good grief, get a grip. It's a school trip to a house of worship to allow the kids to experience something they might otherwise not see. We went of a trip to a Lullingstone Villa. Was that to appease the Romans?
Primary school kids could probably teach the grown ups a few things around this.
TTwiggy said:
e21Mark said:
Why would a primary school feel a need to appease a mosque?
We went of a trip to a Lullingstone Villa. Was that to appease the Romans?
Primary school kids could probably teach the grown ups a few things around this.
This isn't appeasement. Good grief, get a grip. It's a school trip to a house of worship to allow the kids to experience something they might otherwise not see. We went of a trip to a Lullingstone Villa. Was that to appease the Romans?
Primary school kids could probably teach the grown ups a few things around this.
s3fella said:
2. the school is being too "PC" and is thinking this is what they need to do to appease the Mosque, ie overcompensating and forgetting that they have a primary duty to treat all kids fairly in the first instance.
e21Mark said:
TTwiggy said:
e21Mark said:
Why would a primary school feel a need to appease a mosque?
We went of a trip to a Lullingstone Villa. Was that to appease the Romans?
Primary school kids could probably teach the grown ups a few things around this.
This isn't appeasement. Good grief, get a grip. It's a school trip to a house of worship to allow the kids to experience something they might otherwise not see. We went of a trip to a Lullingstone Villa. Was that to appease the Romans?
Primary school kids could probably teach the grown ups a few things around this.
s3fella said:
2. the school is being too "PC" and is thinking this is what they need to do to appease the Mosque, ie overcompensating and forgetting that they have a primary duty to treat all kids fairly in the first instance.
AJS- said:
Twig
If you're going to be consistent then you have to start asking why it is that only boys have to wear ties, and only girls have to cover their chests for swimming, and a million other little details that evolved that way for one reason or another. Or you just accept that some private institutions have a certain dress code for their own reasons and if you want to visit them you should abide by it. Though yes, it would be interesting to know where this demand came from.
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny. If you're going to be consistent then you have to start asking why it is that only boys have to wear ties, and only girls have to cover their chests for swimming, and a million other little details that evolved that way for one reason or another. Or you just accept that some private institutions have a certain dress code for their own reasons and if you want to visit them you should abide by it. Though yes, it would be interesting to know where this demand came from.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
Of course, this all assumes that a) it's the mosque that has asked for this and b) it isn't just a standard request they make of all women who visit and they would not actually expect it of 8-year-olds. But as the promised clarification is yet to appear from the OP we don't know what the truth is. Not that I'm expecting this little issue to stop the flights of fancy on here.
I would guess most dreas conventions have their origin in misogy, misandry, sexualisation or gender stereotypes in some form or another. My point is that the insistence on this should prompt a bit further investigation rather than becoming an end in itself. It's perfectly possible to be a misogynist and not insist on headscarves.
That second dress code sounds like fun though! Did you write for Razzle c1994?
That second dress code sounds like fun though! Did you write for Razzle c1994?
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
AJS- said:
People seem to be very hung up on the headscarf. It's a simple reality that the expectations of how men and women dress are different for a whole lot of cultural and biological reasons, and according to place and occasion.
And if those cultural reasons are based on sexism and misogyny, they need to be challenged. Not just accepted as "tradition".
(Because that's pretty much the three of us all in agreement, which must be something of a record!)
Sam All said:
Your next two tasks.
Sort out Syria
Sort out Sunni/Shia issues
Some will say it is the same problem.
I had a meeting with colleagues yesterday, one of whom covers Africa & Middle East and used to live in Kuwait. His assessment is that Iraq is (very sadly) utterly FUBARed and that Iran is a train wreck in slow motion. There are glimmers of hope - both from the perspective of economy and stability - within the region, such as UAE and Bahrain, but there's no unifying movement that might see greater regional and political co-ordination.Sort out Syria
Sort out Sunni/Shia issues
Some will say it is the same problem.
Alpinestars said:
poo at Paul's said:
But you ignore the dress requirements for the girls on this trip. Is that ok?
Obviously for your son it wasn't an issue, but if you had a daughter would it be ok?
You're not suggesting that it's an issue for girls and not boys are you?Obviously for your son it wasn't an issue, but if you had a daughter would it be ok?
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
As an avowed feminist I applaud your battle for equality but I really don't think this is the place to start your campaign.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Why? Why are the girls asked to dress modestly and not the boys? What's the thinking behind the request? Even if they were grown women, why? Why can men show their hair to women but a woman can't show her hair to a man?
I'm going to take a punt that most boys will be wearing trousers and a shirt which is standard school uniform.I'm going to take another punt that if any of the boys turn up wearing a skirt they'll also be asked to dress appropriately.
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