Primary School Visit to Mosque
Discussion
allnighter said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Well you imagine wrong. It's all about sex. It's all about women and girls as temptresses. Always has been, since Eve. Always will be. The Abrahamic faiths are seriously screwed up in this respect.
In a general way I agree with you, but where this actual topic is concerned I really think you've gone off a cliff. The mosque has a dress code that requires women to cover their heads. Synagogues have a dress code that requires men to do the same. You know how those sexy man-heads bring all the boys to the yard...TwigtheWonderkid said:
Exactly right, Because tits are thought of as sexually exciting and provocative, and a man's are not. So you're admitting that Islam (not Muslims, but Islam) considers a young girl displaying her hair and legs is sexual. And that's what I take issue with.
I think we already agreed earlier in the thread it was not necessary in Islam for the young girls to abide by the dress code at this early age. So unless we know who and why the dress code has been requested I would suggest issues need not be taken. FWIW, my younger brother leads school visits for our local mosque. No dress code is specified.
s3fella said:
Why? I think he is spot on!
1. People on this thread that should know, ie Muslims, have stated that this dress code should not be necessary for kids of this age. That seems to be accepted now.
2. So, accepting that, why is it being stipulated?
It can only be two things.
1. The Mosque being over zealous or too regimented, in which case should a C of E school take their kids to this particular Mosque, rather than a more accepting and tolerant one? OR,
2. the school is being too "PC" and is thinking this is what they need to do to appease the Mosque, ie overcompensating and forgetting that they have a primary duty to treat all kids fairly in the first instance.
Far from "s
te" it is completely rational and logical.
But please come up with an alternative explanation as to why this is being requested, we're all ears.
Just my 2p as we don't have all the facts but as an alternative explanation maybe it's so the girls get an idea of wearing a headscarf. Making it part of the experience and something they can ask about as part of their visit.1. People on this thread that should know, ie Muslims, have stated that this dress code should not be necessary for kids of this age. That seems to be accepted now.
2. So, accepting that, why is it being stipulated?
It can only be two things.
1. The Mosque being over zealous or too regimented, in which case should a C of E school take their kids to this particular Mosque, rather than a more accepting and tolerant one? OR,
2. the school is being too "PC" and is thinking this is what they need to do to appease the Mosque, ie overcompensating and forgetting that they have a primary duty to treat all kids fairly in the first instance.
Far from "s
te" it is completely rational and logical. But please come up with an alternative explanation as to why this is being requested, we're all ears.
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Well you imagine wrong. It's all about sex. It's all about women and girls as temptresses. Always has been, since Eve. Always will be. The Abrahamic faiths are seriously screwed up in this respect.
In a general way I agree with you, but where this actual topic is concerned I really think you've gone off a cliff. The mosque has a dress code that requires women to cover their heads. Synagogues have a dress code that requires men to do the same. You know how those sexy man-heads bring all the boys to the yard...But the torah isn't immune form sexual repression, guilt and shaming of femininity, and has a serious issues with menstruation, with all sorts of daft rules around it.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Exactly right, Because tits are thought of as sexually exciting and provocative, and a man's are not. So you're admitting that Islam (not Muslims, but Islam) considers a young girl displaying her hair and legs is sexual. And that's what I take issue with.
Plenty of States in the US, and other parts of the world, where women can go topless in the same way men can. One (wo)man's modesty, is another (wo)man's liberty.Seems you have some artificial boundaries yourself.
Qualitatively you're in the same place as the Mosque/School, even if you might disgree on a quantitative basis.
Edited by Alpinestars on Thursday 21st January 19:44
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Well I think women also cover their hears in the synagogue. They wear hats. The very strict ones cover their heads all the time, as do the men. The women tend to wear wigs whilst the men wear the cap thingy. But the thinking behind it isn't about sexual repression, but general respect.
But the torah isn't immune form sexual repression, guilt and shaming of femininity, and has a serious issues with menstruation, with all sorts of daft rules around it.
You'll get no arguement from me with regard to how sBut the torah isn't immune form sexual repression, guilt and shaming of femininity, and has a serious issues with menstruation, with all sorts of daft rules around it.
t the Abrahamic religions are towards women. I just think - particularly when we don't even know the truth behind this particular Muslim outrage - that claims of 8-year-old girls being too sexy for the Muslims to resist without head-to-foot covering is rather taking a silly idea and running with it. And then running a bit more. And then, once you've arrived at the end of your run, going for a bit more of a run. And then adding a bit of a run on at the end, just to be safe.TwigtheWonderkid said:
Well I think women also cover their hears in the synagogue. They wear hats. The very strict ones cover their heads all the time, as do the men. The women tend to wear wigs whilst the men wear the cap thingy. But the thinking behind it isn't about sexual repression, but general respect.
I was under the impression that it was somewhat more than general respect. Rather, fear. To remind the wearer that god was watching over him from above. Not just in vengeance, but looking after him in guidance.The 'cap thingy': is a kippah or yarmulke.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
allnighter said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
TTwiggy said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your last sentence is the key. I have no problem with dress codes. I have no problem with dress codes that are different for men and women. I do have a problem with a dress code based on sexism or misogyny.
I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
And if the girls in question were being asked to dress like that then there would be questions asked! But they're not. They are being asked to dress modestly and in the terms of the place they are visiting, modestly means a head covering and legs covered. I would have no problem going with my wife to an event where I had to wear a DJ and she had to wear an evening dress. But I wouldn't go to an event where I could wear what I liked but she has to wear a micro skirt, high heels and a see thru blouse. I would ask myself what their reasons were for this code.
but seriously, you need to lighten up a bit about the covering of the hair bit in a mosque.Oh look - another of these religions who insist women cover their hair and limit what women can wear. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3404770/...
rscott said:
Oh look - another of these religions who insist women cover their hair and limit what women can wear. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3404770/...
Not that I'm suggesting the Catholic church are an organisation to be admired either... but are you sure about that?
I guessed you missed the comment that only a very select group of women are allowed to wear white when meeting the Pope?
Fairly strict rules on what men and women can wear here - http://www.papalaudience.org/dress-code . In hot summer, men can wear shorts, but women must have their knees covered.
Fairly strict rules on what men and women can wear here - http://www.papalaudience.org/dress-code . In hot summer, men can wear shorts, but women must have their knees covered.
TTwiggy said:
I just think - particularly when we don't even know the truth behind this particular Muslim outrage - that claims of 8-year-old girls being too sexy for the Muslims to resist without head-to-foot covering is rather taking a silly idea and running with it.
It is a silly idea....it's Islam's silly idea. If you take a big step back.....
School trips are very limited... A guess... less than 5 a year.
With such wonders as these on our doorsteps...
British Museum ( substitute for local/ regional major museum )
Eden Project ( Substitute for local key project... e.g. Falkirk wheel etc )
Historic castles, national trust, English/ Scottish etc heritage sites
Roman ruins ( plenty everywhere )
Local factory ( key industry of new tech.... solar, wind etc etc )
Or.. we could have our kids visit a rather bland 1960's brick block, that looks like an empty carpeted function room in a Hilton hotel
It really is a missed opportunity.
Look... I am pretty clear that ramming religion down kids throats is nasty.
But if OFSTED are going to force it... invite said representative to come into the school... says their peace... and leave.
Let the school trips be for something that is inspirational and not faith based.
School trips are very limited... A guess... less than 5 a year.
With such wonders as these on our doorsteps...
British Museum ( substitute for local/ regional major museum )
Eden Project ( Substitute for local key project... e.g. Falkirk wheel etc )
Historic castles, national trust, English/ Scottish etc heritage sites
Roman ruins ( plenty everywhere )
Local factory ( key industry of new tech.... solar, wind etc etc )
Or.. we could have our kids visit a rather bland 1960's brick block, that looks like an empty carpeted function room in a Hilton hotel
It really is a missed opportunity.
Look... I am pretty clear that ramming religion down kids throats is nasty.
But if OFSTED are going to force it... invite said representative to come into the school... says their peace... and leave.
Let the school trips be for something that is inspirational and not faith based.
Edited by Troubleatmill on Thursday 21st January 22:44
poo at Paul's said:
GavinPearson said:
We visited Leicester Cathedral recently and saw the tomb of Richard III.
Etc
Etc
Kids who go to a Mosque should be equally able to take all the facts in and decide for themselves over time what their position is on that religion. But I also believe that the facts should be presented as "this is what they teach in this Mosque / this is what they do".
Go on the visit and ensure that they stick to that script.
But you ignore the dress requirements for the girls on this trip. Is that ok? Etc
Etc
Kids who go to a Mosque should be equally able to take all the facts in and decide for themselves over time what their position is on that religion. But I also believe that the facts should be presented as "this is what they teach in this Mosque / this is what they do".
Go on the visit and ensure that they stick to that script.
Obviously for your son it wasn't an issue, but if you had a daughter would it be ok?
They don't have to like it.
All they have to do is remember what it was like when they get a bit older and they can give an opinion on it then.
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