TTIP agreement EU and USA

[JMGS4]

ALL discussions between the EU and the USA about TTIP are being held in secret. A whistleblower has published SOME of the details and all the details show a wish by the US (companies) to remove all the EUs ecological, health and safety and other customer protection laws and replace them with the US equivalent, and we all know what they are.. feckin useless.

I'm not rejecting it because it's held in secret, I'm rejecting it because they want good law bent/removed solely for the benefit of US multis... that's NEVER good... and adjudication courts outside GB/EU control who judge US-Multis v EU/GB governments will never be impartial, they'll go where the money is like FIFA or the IOC.......

[Digga]

richie99 said:

JMGS4 said:

TTIP is rejected by most people in the EU, because of the secrecy surrounding the talks. Even the EU Parliament has been kept in the dark. I cannot see it being any use except to subvert ALL customer protection laws of ANY kind here, whether ecological, genetically modified food, health and safety etc.
This agreement profits ONLY american big business and disadvantages ALL end users IMHO
NO it is of NO USE to the EU or GB!

Are you seriously saying that it is reasonable to reject something because it is being discussed in secret?

The secret bit isn't true but let's assume that it is. Surely only a moron would reject something which might be great for them just because they don't know the details of it yet. Just because you can't seen it being any use doesn't mean that it isn't, especially as you don't seem to know anything about it.

You say it's not secret, but here from an Irish MEP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozj0qwnMGZ0

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

richie99 said:

JMGS4 said:

TTIP is rejected by most people in the EU, because of the secrecy surrounding the talks. Even the EU Parliament has been kept in the dark. I cannot see it being any use except to subvert ALL customer protection laws of ANY kind here, whether ecological, genetically modified food, health and safety etc.
This agreement profits ONLY american big business and disadvantages ALL end users IMHO
NO it is of NO USE to the EU or GB!

Are you seriously saying that it is reasonable to reject something because it is being discussed in secret?

The secret bit isn't true but let's assume that it is. Surely only a moron would reject something which might be great for them just because they don't know the details of it yet. Just because you can't seen it being any use doesn't mean that it isn't, especially as you don't seem to know anything about it.

You say it's not secret, but here from an Irish MEP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozj0qwnMGZ0

They were quite right to prevent loud-mouth, convicted criminal from accessing work-in-progress documents. And I say this as a big opponent of TTIP (with ISDS).

[Digga]

jjlynn27 said:

They were quite right to prevent loud-mouth, convicted criminal from accessing work-in-progress documents. And I say this as a big opponent of TTIP (with ISDS).

He's an MEP. The same rules apply to all MEPs.

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

jjlynn27 said:

They were quite right to prevent loud-mouth, convicted criminal from accessing work-in-progress documents. And I say this as a big opponent of TTIP (with ISDS).

He's an MEP. The same rules apply to all MEPs.

And? He was granted an access to see for himself. He was prevented from taking a copy of 'work-in-progress'
document. He (IIRC) was made to sign the he'll not divulge verbatim of what was said in the documents.

What's the problem with that?

[Digga]

jjlynn27 said:

What's the problem with that?

I can't make you see what's wrong with that, and more that you can convince me it's all fine, democratic and above board.

[Terminator X]

From what I know abut it (which is tough as so much seems to be "secret") it only seems to benefit companies which surely can't be ideal.

TX.

[Digga]

Terminator X said:

From what I know abut it (which is tough as so much seems to be "secret") it only seems to benefit companies which surely can't be ideal.

TX.

Don't worry though, it's all fine, it must be, because jjlynn27 has told it is so. He has spoken.

[anonymous-user]

JMGS4 said:

...secrecy surrounding the talks...

This agreement profits ONLY american big business and disadvantages ALL end users...

Er? You seem very sure about the outcome of these secret talks!

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

jjlynn27 said:

What's the problem with that?

I can't make you see what's wrong with that, and more that you can convince me it's all fine, democratic and above board.

I'm not asking you to 'make me see' anything. I'm asking what do YOU think it's wrong with it. If your company is negotiating a trade deal with someone do you expect to be able to see the details if you are not part of negotiation? Let alone copy and publish them?

Anything?

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

Terminator X said:

From what I know abut it (which is tough as so much seems to be "secret") it only seems to benefit companies which surely can't be ideal.

TX.

Don't worry though, it's all fine, it must be, because jjlynn27 has told it is so. He has spoken.

LOL. I said that I'm, personally, very much against the deal that includes ISDS, and I did state my reasons. That MEP is wrong to want to publish details of negotiations that are not concluded. Not sure what benefit that'll bring to anyone. Unless you are convinced that lizards are running EU and want to keep ordinary plebs in the dark about their true motives.

[Digga]

TTIP is a matter of great public interest. I'm really not sure how or why any of it ought to be done behind closed doors. That's my issue. I know I am not alone in this regard.

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

TTIP is a matter of great public interest. I'm really not sure how or why any of it ought to be done behind closed doors. That's my issue. I know I am not alone in this regard.

You keep repeating the same thing. I've asked you very simple question; What information would you hope to gain from copy of documents about the negotiation still in works? What would be the point? Do you think that all negotiations should be done in public?

He wasn't even precluded from writing things in his own words (which was a mistake in my opinion). Rebel without a cause, desperate loser who shouldn't be anywhere near politics.

It seems that your prejudices are getting better of you, you are trying to portray something as undemocratic, and yet failing to answer fairly simple questions.

[Digga]

jjlynn27 said:

It seems that your prejudices are getting better of you, you are trying to portray something as undemocratic, and yet failing to answer fairly simple questions.

Not my prejudices, take your pick:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mp...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb...

If no one knows what is being negotiated, how can they possibly know whether it is in the public interest or not?

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

ot my prejudices, take your pick:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mp...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb...

If no one knows what is being negotiated, how can they possibly know whether it is in the public interest or not?

Still dodging, ehh?

I'm not saying that TTIP is democratic or undemocratic. I'm saying that access to TTIP work in progress documents shouldn't be made public until conclusion of negotiations.

Do you expect to see documents of negotiation in progress by UK with any country before they are concluded? Should those 'work-in-progress' documents be made public? All of them? At what frequency, after every change?

[Digga]

I do believe people have the right to know what is being negotiated. Furthermore, given that the negotiations were between business and government - the EU government - the citizens of that jurisdiction did have the right not know, yes.

[Terminator X]

jjlynn27 said:

Still dodging, ehh?

I'm not saying that TTIP is democratic or undemocratic. I'm saying that access to TTIP work in progress documents shouldn't be made public until conclusion of negotiations.

Do you expect to see documents of negotiation in progress by UK with any country before they are concluded? Should those 'work-in-progress' documents be made public? All of them? At what frequency, after every change?

Govt not helping themselves though by keeping it all on the QT, only makes the plebs suspicious! Sunlight is the best disinfectant etc.

TX.

[carinaman]

Former Spook discusses German book entitled The Lie of Free Trade at around 23 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMUfCdsBzLI

[jjlynn27]

Digga said:

I do believe people have the right to know what is being negotiated. Furthermore, given that the negotiations were between business and government - the EU government - the citizens of that jurisdiction did have the right not know, yes.

So, you'll find UK democracy lacking if UK govt doesn't publish details of all negotiations, even before they are concluded? I think I understand your position now, I don't think that any govt ever did this, or that any future govt will ever do it in the future, or that's even possible. As long as your prejudices don't cloud your judgement, that's all that matters, right?

[don4l]

jjlynn27 said:

Digga said:

I do believe people have the right to know what is being negotiated. Furthermore, given that the negotiations were between business and government - the EU government - the citizens of that jurisdiction did have the right not know, yes.

So, you'll find UK democracy lacking if UK govt doesn't publish details of all negotiations, even before they are concluded? I think I understand your position now, I don't think that any govt ever did this, or that any future govt will ever do it in the future, or that's even possible. As long as your prejudices don't cloud your judgement, that's all that matters, right?

Didn't Cameron tell us what he wanted in our renotiations with a reformed EU?