Brexit Poll 1/2/16

[Mario149]

Funkycoldribena said:

Shows you can be very bright in one area of life but very dim in others.

Not really, no. We're not talking nerdy professors here who never step outside the library, we're by and large talking about professional people who are well educated and have been successful in life.

It's not saying there aren't valid arguments for the leave side, but to assume that on average the smartest people in the country are all making the same wrong decision is a bit daft.

[Mario149]

Funkycoldribena said:

Mario149 said:

It's not saying there aren't valid arguments for the leave side, but to assume that on average the smartest people in the country are all making the same wrong decision is a bit daft.

I don't think it is.
You've got to be pretty dumb to vote for an institution that wastes millions and ignores democracy.How the hell anyone with an ounce of brainpower would want more of it is bewildering.

And with comments like we see why it's generally "the not quite as sharp as the rest" wanting Brexit. As someone else said, if you can't see the nuances here and the fact it's not as cut and dried as you'd like, then you're not really on the ball. I'm pro Remain, but I acknowledge there are some benefits to Brexit. I just think there are more benefits to Remain. I've been debating FOR the Brexit cause on FB with friends (who know I'm Remain) to stimulate debate and make people think about their own decision.

[Mario149]

powerstroke said:

Mario149 said:

Funkycoldribena said:

Shows you can be very bright in one area of life but very dim in others.

Not really, no. We're not talking nerdy professors here who never step outside the library, we're by and large talking about professional people who are well educated and have been successful in life.

It's not saying there aren't valid arguments for the leave side, but to assume that on average the smartest people in the country are all making the same wrong decision is a bit daft.

Most are just good at remembering what some other idiot has told them and putting it on a exam paper , some of the daftest people I've ever met had a degree .... clever on paper but no common sense... so I have no difficulty in seeing why they would drink in the official line on the EU ...

That's the standard "university of life" answer and is basically b*ll*cks. We all know people without degrees who are switched on and do well, and vice versa. But if you're trying to argue that somehow on average the cream of the crop, the best and brightest, the people to which we should entrust the big decisions, all somehow slipped through the net of education and success and are biding their time working at Sainsburys on £15K with a couple of O-Levels just waiting for the moment they can let their intellectual and analytical brilliance shine through for the Brexit vote because apparently the AB/uni educated demographic are mostly morons, I think you're somewhat shy of the mark.

Edited by Mario149 on Sunday 22 May 15:07

[Mario149]

Vincefox said:

Is anyone voting based on issues other than the potential financial implications?

Financial is a small part of how I'm choosing to vote. But I'm fundamentally in favour of a whole load of countries banding together with common aims. Europe has come *so* far in the last 70 years, and I'm actually quite proud of what has been achieved given the chaos at the end of the last war and the fact that we've been part of it. So apart from anything else, us throwing our teddies out of the pram and storming off in a huff just because migrants are suddenly high on the agenda, people aren't quite sure how the European parliament works and someone is saying we might be able to trade more outside but can't prove it, seems a bit of a waste.

[Mario149]

gothatway said:

It seems to me that the vast majority of in voters are voting solely on the basis of perceived/rumoured financial implications.

But can you blame them when there is no clear, fixed vision of what we would get when in terms trade if we left? It would be one thing if our business within the EU was dropping off a cliff as we speak, but it's not. So Leave are asking people to take a punt which is fine, but when no-one knows what the odds are, it's quite a big "ask".

[Mario149]

Pooh said:

Immigration is not a big concern for me as I think it can be a good thing but I would like to have more control over who and how many we let in. I would like people from all countries to have an equal right to settle here and have a points based system so that we could, for example, allow an engineer from India in rather than somebody from the EU with no useful skills, at the moment we cannot do this.

You can have a points based system to let non-EU people in to the UK, we just choose not to. And any EU citizen coming here to work who does not find work within 3 months can be chucked out. Again, we just choose not to enforce it which is an issue of our gov not the EU.

[Mario149]

fido said:

Mario149 said:

And any EU citizen coming here to work who does not find work within 3 months can be chucked out. Again, we just choose not to enforce it which is an issue of our gov not the EU.

That's absolute rubbish. It's near impossible to enforce because it is relatively easy to prove you are looking for a job and currently studying part-time. As for non-EU how difficult do you think it is to get a dodgy EU passport from any of the other EU countries? Immigration is third down the list for me on the reasons to Brexit but I can't see how it can be enforced properly unless we leave the Single Market.

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

[Mario149]

Monty Python said:

I'd prefer a "remain for x years, then leave if things haven't improved". I'm not sure people in this country will have enough genuine information to make a properly informed decision - at the moment the news seems to be full of misinformation.

I think that would be a good option, say that it was every gov's policy to have a referendum every 10 years.

[Mario149]

NailedOn said:

The EU debate is NOT about immigration.
Glad that's clear.

http://news.sky.com/story/1700509/uk-becoming-more...

The fact that multiculturalism didn't work, that Blair failed to 'teach us a lesson,' is ALL YOUR FAULT.

You cannot blame the immigrants who are here and failed to:
Speak English
Obey the law (British not Sharia that is)
Respect their host country
Integrate


No, they are victims of racial/ethnic/something else discrimination.
They have rights but not responsibilities.
You, you, you white tax-paying bigot, you had better 'embrace' diversity.
Or else.

Remember, these people brought us, er:
Mosques
FGM
Terrorists
Burkas

What did you do for diversity? You bigot. From wherever.

Let's vote Remain and welcome the world to the NHS, social housing, contra flow and potholes.
C' mon in. Everybody else has!

you do realise the immigrants you're talking about don't come from the EU right? And leaving will have no bearing on whether they come here or not? 8/10 for the rant though

[Mario149]

Mario149 said:

fido said:

Mario149 said:

And any EU citizen coming here to work who does not find work within 3 months can be chucked out. Again, we just choose not to enforce it which is an issue of our gov not the EU.

<snip>That's absolute rubbish. It's near impossible to enforce because it is relatively easy to prove you are looking for a job and currently studying part-time.</snip>

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

Been about 4 pages since I posted this yesterday. So given that we can get rid EU migrants if they're not working etc already, why do we need to leave the EU to do it suddenly?

Reminds me of a FB thingy I saw the other day:

[Mario149]

fido said:

Mario149 said:

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

If you really believe many of the homeless people sleeping around London are going to be deported back to the EU because they haven't found a job within 3 months you are deluded. I even have Romanian people selling the Big Issue outside Wimbledon station in SW London.

http://immigrationmatters.co.uk/eea-national%E2%80...

"EEA nationals are normally allowed to enter and stay in the UK for for a period not exceeding three months unless other conditions are met, for instance if they exercise ‘treaty rights’ to work, study or declare themselves as ‘self sufficient’.

However, most people ignore this rule or do not realise it exists, and the UK Border Agency (UKBA) do not pursue EEA national ‘overstayers’."

My sister works for UKBA so don't really need lectures on what they can or cannot do. Practically, what would be the point of deporting them (not to mention the huge costs involved) when they could just return the next week on a Megabus!

Edited by fido on Tuesday 24th May 13:58

Right, so like me you're saying we can deport them even if we're in the EU but we just don't? Thanks for reinforcing my point. And if you don't want them on the next megabus in, how about using computers to log people we have deported so their passports flag up at UK entry points....like we do already.

[Mario149]

John145 said:

Mario149 said:

Mario149 said:

fido said:

Mario149 said:

And any EU citizen coming here to work who does not find work within 3 months can be chucked out. Again, we just choose not to enforce it which is an issue of our gov not the EU.

<snip>That's absolute rubbish. It's near impossible to enforce because it is relatively easy to prove you are looking for a job and currently studying part-time.</snip>

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

Been about 4 pages since I posted this yesterday. So given that we can get rid EU migrants if they're not working etc already, why do we need to leave the EU to do it suddenly?

Reminds me of a FB thingy I saw the other day:

Is the following statement true or false:

If you work in a minimum wage job you will be entitled to in work benefits?

If yes, then there is no Schroedinger at work, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

That's reliant on the critical fact that a UK person would have to be willing got do that job in the first place, which they almost never are. I'm sure quite a few of you heard the Bangladeshi chap on R4 this morning saying that, in response to Vote Leave claiming our curry culture is dying due to lack of labour, he's voting in as he can't employ Bangladeshis because of all the red tape to bring them currently as the min wage must be £30K+, and that won't change in future as the UK doesn't want the number of immigrants needed even if we do leave, British people won't do the job, so he's left with employing Romanians who despite not speaking English are apparently the best people for the job.

So the real comparison is, what is the net benefit to our treasury of someone working minimum wage, claiming some in work benefits but not for long when the 4 year thing kicks in, and contributing to our economy while paying taxes etc, and making the business a success which in turns pays taxes.....compared to that job lying empty and the ramifications it has on that business and how much income the treasury receives?

[Mario149]

NailedOn said:

Mario149 said:

NailedOn said:

The EU debate is NOT about immigration.
Glad that's clear.

http://news.sky.com/story/1700509/uk-becoming-more...

The fact that multiculturalism didn't work, that Blair failed to 'teach us a lesson,' is ALL YOUR FAULT.

You cannot blame the immigrants who are here and failed to:
Speak English
Obey the law (British not Sharia that is)
Respect their host country
Integrate


No, they are victims of racial/ethnic/something else discrimination.
They have rights but not responsibilities.
You, you, you white tax-paying bigot, you had better 'embrace' diversity.
Or else.

Remember, these people brought us, er:
Mosques
FGM
Terrorists
Burkas

What did you do for diversity? You bigot. From wherever.

Let's vote Remain and welcome the world to the NHS, social housing, contra flow and potholes.
C' mon in. Everybody else has!

you do realise the immigrants you're talking about don't come from the EU right? And leaving will have no bearing on whether they come here or not? 8/10 for the rant though

They’re foreign aren’t they?
That’s all that matter to the kippers and Daily Express readers.

Apologies, didn't realise you were taking the mick

[Mario149]

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

We are getting the immigration we need, ironically most of it is labour that doesn't require skill because it's the low paid jobs British people won't do.

[Mario149]

REALIST123 said:

Mario149 said:

Digga said:

Aside from looking at global trade, rather than a Euro-centric view of trade, a lot of Brexiters would like to see the right sort immigration - skills and requirements based - irrespective of colour or nationality. At the moment, that simply is not able to happen because of quotas.

We are getting the immigration we need, ironically most of it is labour that doesn't require skill because it's the low paid jobs British people won't do.

Maybe British people would do them if they were less featherbedded by benefits and there were less immigrants?

Whatever, it's a diversion from the main issue of the disastrous track record of the EU in general and it's equally damaging plans for the future.

So it's valid to leave the EU because our benefits system doesn't work properly?! That's a new one!

[Mario149]

gothatway said:

Mario149 said:

We are getting the immigration we need, ironically most of it is labour that doesn't require skill because it's the low paid jobs British people won't do.

Are we really ? In the NHS and the education system ? I guess that somewhere there will be an optimal ratio of doctors/nurses/teachers to population (other of course than always needing more). Anyone know a) where we are currently wrt such ratios and b) whether immigration improves those ratios or not ?

Well, it would be good to see figures, but we have plenty of pepole doing the low paid jobs Brits won't do, and plenty of skilled people filling the NHS etc because we apparently can't get enough of our lot to do that either - so I'd say we're doing pretty damn well out of it overall

[Mario149]

zygalski said:

My understanding is that the leave campaign isn't really concerned about the economic arguments. They are often glossed-over with a peculiar kind of rest of the world needs us more than we need them mentality. The main reason most of the Brexit/Flexit/Part-Ex-it will vote leave is because of what they see as purely ethical reasons, such as political sovereignty & economic/fiscal independence.
Trouble is, we'll leave the organisation but still have to abide by its rules, whilst also having no influence on them. What is truly naive is to think you can leave a club & once you're out ignore all the bits you don't like, but keep all the benefits.
If we do leave then I think we're in for an awakening. I don't see the EU doing us any real favours, just because we're British & we voted to leave the club.
Post-Brexit the EU could unravel economically. Doing around 50% trade with them the consequences for us would be profound.
Of course that's not much of a problem if your "job" entails posting right wing garbage on a car forum 200 times a day, but for those of us with work to do & not living in ivory towers this is a major reason why we'll be voting remain.
Not an ideal solution, but far better in my opinion than the alternative.

Edited by zygalski on Friday 27th May 06:50

[Mario149]

don4l said:

This morning, on R4, we had Anna Soubry going on about the demographic of the typical "leave" voter. Apparently we tend to be old, pale and male. She managed to leave out "uneducated" but it was implied.

So she is telling the truth and that somehow winds you up?

[Mario149]

robm3 said:

When the Irish were given a vote to accept the EU 'Treaty of Lisbon' e.g. tying them further into the EU, they voted against. So instead of honoring the public's wishes and proceeding to withdraw, the government did another referendum two years later till they got the vote they wanted.

That old chestnut again. The Irish voted based on certain terms/issues and rejected it. The terms/issues were then modified to be more to their liking and the vote held again and this time they didn't.

[Mario149]

turbobloke said:

Mario149 said:

don4l said:

This morning, on R4, we had Anna Soubry going on about the demographic of the typical "leave" voter. Apparently we tend to be old, pale and male. She managed to leave out "uneducated" but it was implied.

So she is telling the truth and that somehow winds you up?

Telling the truth is one thing.

What Soubry claimed is another.

Claiming that somebody is upset is a diversionary tactic, stating an objection to an implied smear seems as rational as it does emotional so the choice involved in implying somebody has been 'wound up' is one born of bias.

There's no typical Remain or Leave voter as human characteristics cannot be averaged in the manner of a set of numbers. There will be a very decent representation of old white males in Remain camp.

The type of comment implied by Soubry is in effect an example of the ad hominem logical fallacy. Weak stuff from increasingly desperate Remain campers.

They're going to win the vote so why all the bother

Okay, now you're blustering. Polls have shown that Leave voters and Remain voters are more likely to fit certain demographics than others. In the same way that the average person in the world is more likely to be Chinese than from anywhere else.

Don4l apparently got upset at the notion that since he will vote leave there is a more likely than not chance that he was old or white or not formally educated to a very high level, or some combination of them. He may or may not be, but the polls show he's more likely to fall into those demographics than be young or non-white or university educated.

Stating what demographic someone is likely to fall into is not a smear. Saying that on average less educated people are likely to vote leave is also not a smear, it's just a fact born out by research. I can't say for other people, but if I had to make a serious, nuanced, complex decision in which there were many shades of grey and there were 100 people who were on average university educated saying one thing, and 100 people on average educated to O-Level/GCSE saying the opposite, I would suspect the former were more likely to have the better answer than the latter and that would significantly influence my decision.