Brexit Poll 1/2/16

[Esseesse]

Bradgate said:

colonel c said:

Get the fk out. What have we got to lose?

The single market?

Double edged sword, and we wouldn't cease to trade with Europe anyway.

Bradgate said:

Employment protection legislation?

There's far too much of that anyway (and I'm an employee).

Bradgate said:

The right to live & work wherever you wish in the EU?

Who cares? If it's in the interest of the country you wish to go they will let you stay. If you're a burden on another country then I think it's reasonable for them to not allow you there.

[turbobloke]

el stovey said:

Will this be a repeat of the Scottish/Quebec/whoever referendum.

Leave campaign talks about being a proud nation, self determination etc.

Stay campaign talks about being better together and uncertainty.

Proud used in that way has a hint of a sneer about it, self-determination will do.

Still waiting for what's "better" about being together as part of a dysfunctional shambles that can't or won't sort its own accounts, runs roughshod over the interests of individual member nations for the sake of the project, bypasses democracy by intalling puppet leadership and re-running a vote where they don't like the result, has the crisis-prone EZ which is teetering on the brink, our 'inside voice' of 'influence' is largely ignored while unelected Brussels Projeckt Drones dictate over more and more of our lives as our net contribution is hoovered up by a growing list of grasping new entrants with their eyes on the collectivist trough which sits in the hands of redistribution zealots. All so these zealots aka incompetent self-regarding careerist politicos can pretend they'll out-America their best mate (!) America on the world stage while paying themselves inflated salaries with no tax and platinum-plated pensions to go.

[PRTVR]

Esseesse said:

Bradgate said:

colonel c said:

Get the fk out. What have we got to lose?

The single market?

Double edged sword, and we wouldn't cease to trade with Europe anyway.

Bradgate said:

Employment protection legislation?

There's far too much of that anyway (and I'm an employee).

Bradgate said:

The right to live & work wherever you wish in the EU?

Who cares? If it's in the interest of the country you wish to go they will let you stay. If you're a burden on another country then I think it's reasonable for them to not allow you there.

But but what about cheap mobile phone charges in Europe, because that all the have that is positive, but at what cost? Does anybody think the big phone companies will not make up the loss from somewhere else on your bill, there is no free lunch.

[Scuffers]

you only have to watch this to realise just how false this all is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxjIzTc3wX8

this is Dave's negotiator FFS!

[vanordinaire]

Does anyone else think the 'migrant issue' is a deliberate red herring thrown into mix by David Cameron and blindly grasped at by UKIP etc as a genuine issue? I don't know anyone who will be voting for Brexit on the basis of migrant policies but it seems to be the main issue discussed in talks and reported by the press.
The real issues of increasing federalism and EU interference in our industries and legal systems doesn't seem to be getting discusssed. It seems to me that David Cameron has picked an issue that he can make a show of fighting over and can make some progress just in time for a referendum.

[Esseesse]

PRTVR said:

But but what about cheap mobile phone charges in Europe, because that all the have that is positive, but at what cost? Does anybody think the big phone companies will not make up the loss from somewhere else on your bill, there is no free lunch.

Roaming charges are coming down across the world. IIRC the reduction/removal of roaming charges comes from a higher international authority, implimented by the EU who take the credit.

[Scuffers]

Esseesse said:

Roaming charges are coming down across the world. IIRC the reduction/removal of roaming charges comes from a higher international authority, implimented by the EU who take the credit.

Rubbish it's because of crap national regulators.

[v8250]

vanordinaire said:

Does anyone else think the 'migrant issue' is a deliberate red herring thrown into mix by David Cameron and blindly grasped at by UKIP etc as a genuine issue? I don't know anyone who will be voting for Brexit on the basis of migrant policies but it seems to be the main issue discussed in talks and reported by the press.

From personal discussion, every person with whom I've discussed the EU issue has named the migrant issue as their #1 priority. Their concerns are the destructive effects of excessive migrant movement and net EU immigration of peoples who bring little or no value to the UK. We must understand, the calibre of peoples accepted into the EU and UK under non-elected immigration policy bring no social or economic value...but they do bring the burden of extreme social and economic stress to individual nations. The stress is enormous with the £Bn's paid in financial, educational, health and social support. I don't need to write this here...we all understand the issues.

The other concern constantly expressed is that the migrants have little or no want, or understanding, that they need to fully integrate with their adopted country. Instead we see large regional conclaves of Pakistan, of Syria, of Muslim conclaves where the migrants want all the benefits of the UK but have no intent of becoming British...or French, or Swedish, or German...And, there's the issue of unacceptable social standards, social standards that are criminal activities as seen in many EU states over the past years. It may be socially acceptable to sexually attack females in their country of birth...but it is absolutely contrary to our basic laws, our fundamental social structure of decency to allow these people to commit the same crimes in the UK and other European nations. To be direct, we do not live in a country based on medieval laws, we are a modern democratic nation and will not accept such backwardly uneducated life beliefs.

Here, I am not being racist in any way. Simply, we live in the C21st, not the C11th.

[Mario149]

v8250 said:

Instead we see large regional conclaves of Pakistan, of Syria, of Muslim conclaves where the migrants want all the benefits of the UK but have no intent of becoming British...or French, or Swedish, or German.

These people can be excluded from the UK already, EU can't force us to take any of them, so how would leaving help this particular problem?

[Digga]

Mario149 said:

These people can be excluded from the UK already, EU can't force us to take any of them, so how would leaving help this particular problem?

The EU's borders are demonstrably leaky. Once they are into any of these laxly policed EU nations, they seem perfectly at liberty to go wherever they please, which generally seems to mean the UK, Sweden and Germany for various reasons.

[Esseesse]

Mario149 said:

v8250 said:

Instead we see large regional conclaves of Pakistan, of Syria, of Muslim conclaves where the migrants want all the benefits of the UK but have no intent of becoming British...or French, or Swedish, or German.

These people can be excluded from the UK already, EU can't force us to take any of them, so how would leaving help this particular problem?

They can if they make these people 'European' legally.

[Mario149]

Digga said:

Mario149 said:

These people can be excluded from the UK already, EU can't force us to take any of them, so how would leaving help this particular problem?

The EU's borders are demonstrably leaky. Once they are into any of these laxly policed EU nations, they seem perfectly at liberty to go wherever they please, which generally seems to mean the UK, Sweden and Germany for various reasons.

Okay, but if they get to France, they can still camp at the Calais border like they do now and try and get in whether we're in the EU or not

[Mario149]

Esseesse said:

They can if they make these people 'European' legally.

Do we have numbers for how many have been made European?

[AJS-]

There's plenty of talk about the EU imposing quotas for which countries take 'refugees' and moves in that direction.

In the normal run of these things it would be dismissed as ridiculous first, then talk about it being part of a sensible overall strategy to deal with a difficult problem facing the whole continent and only racists and xenophobes oppose it, then it would be a done deal, but just look at all the benefits we get from EU membership.

[gruffalo]

Does this change things?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

The way I see it the brake being put on benefits will be unlikely to be agreed by the EU so is probably meaningless.

The brake on benefits should be down to the nation affected not the EU where most states benefit from their people now in the UK sending money home at the direct cost to the UK tax payer.

[otolith]

Esseesse said:

Historically hasn't Europe been pretty socialist/statist? The Anglosphere is what has been free market capitalist. Why do you think they will change?

I think that is probably the root of the issue. The UK seems generally less collectivist than the rest of the EU.

Kermit power said:

I'd rather not be trying to compete with China, the US and whatever is left of the EU as one small country if possible.

What are we competing for?

[dandarez]

dandarez said:

Willy Nilly said:

The idea of the EU is a good one, but it is in desperate need of reform. If we vote to stay in it will give the people that run the EU a mandate to carry on as before. I think we should stay in, subject to much better terms for us (or just our representatives doing a better job), but am leaning towards leaving.

Those 'better' terms?
Last night... (Tusk) 'No deal'.
Tomorrow lunchtime... Cameron will do his Chamberlain moment, waiving a bit of paper: 'I have a deal!'

'I have a dream' (where have I heard that before?) will be nearer the mark.

OUT! OUT! OUT!

I was wrong. He's not waiving a bit of paper, he's waiving a

CallMeDave has been totally ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJh47LybCkU

[AJS-]

gruffalo said:

Does this change things?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendu...

The way I see it the brake being put on benefits will be unlikely to be agreed by the EU so is probably meaningless.

The brake on benefits should be down to the nation affected not the EU where most states benefit from their people now in the UK sending money home at the direct cost to the UK tax payer.

Only solidifies my leave position. We have to 'negotiate' with the EU to stop paying child benefit to Romanians living in Romania? Screw that.

It highlights what this referendum is really about - who actually runs the country.

[DaveCWK]

Leaning towards leaving.
I think the UK can do better than membership of a seemingly undemocratic, excessively bureaucratic, stuck in the past tedious political behemoth.

In fact, put me down for the full out

[s1962a]

How many of those who want to leave wouldn't be concerned about a falling pound and higher cost of goods? either due to uncertainty whilst things settle down, or higher levys and taxes we have to pay for imports and exports.

Somehow I get the impression that we just leave and it will be business as usual. Unlikely.