Brexit Poll 1/2/16

[fido]

Mario149 said:

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

If you really believe many of the homeless people sleeping around London are going to be deported back to the EU because they haven't found a job within 3 months you are deluded. I even have Romanian people selling the Big Issue outside Wimbledon station in SW London.

http://immigrationmatters.co.uk/eea-national%E2%80...

"EEA nationals are normally allowed to enter and stay in the UK for for a period not exceeding three months unless other conditions are met, for instance if they exercise ‘treaty rights’ to work, study or declare themselves as ‘self sufficient’.

However, most people ignore this rule or do not realise it exists, and the UK Border Agency (UKBA) do not pursue EEA national ‘overstayers’."

My sister works for UKBA so don't really need lectures on what they can or cannot do. Practically, what would be the point of deporting them (not to mention the huge costs involved) when they could just return the next week on a Megabus!

Edited by fido on Tuesday 24th May 13:58

[John145]

Mario149 said:

Mario149 said:

fido said:

Mario149 said:

And any EU citizen coming here to work who does not find work within 3 months can be chucked out. Again, we just choose not to enforce it which is an issue of our gov not the EU.

<snip>That's absolute rubbish. It's near impossible to enforce because it is relatively easy to prove you are looking for a job and currently studying part-time.</snip>

Last time I checked (which was a while ago I admit), "looking" for a job didn't come into it, you have to have a job, or you can be binned. Likewise you would have to prove you're studying. They don't believe you? Binned. There is just no will to do it from the gov. All the data is there, everyone's passport or ID is logged when they enter and when they exit.

Been about 4 pages since I posted this yesterday. So given that we can get rid EU migrants if they're not working etc already, why do we need to leave the EU to do it suddenly?

Reminds me of a FB thingy I saw the other day:

Is the following statement true or false:

If you work in a minimum wage job you will be entitled to in work benefits?

If yes, then there is no Schroedinger at work, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

[Timmy40]

zygalski said:

43/57 out/remain is my prediction.
I don't think it will be quite as close as we are led to believe.

I'd reverse that, because in the silver haired brigade they are apparently 2/3 in favour of an exit. And those old buggers all vote.

Yes in the 18-25 age bracket that's reversed but despite registering on the opinion polls they then tend not to bother turning out to vote. If there was a snapchat app for voting they might bother. But you physically need to go to a polling station.

In the middle 25-45 bracket I think it's pretty much even.

So it's the old farts versus the kids that will decide it.

[blindswelledrat]

John145 said:

Is, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

[John145]

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

Is, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Or, perhaps more likely, no one wants to work minimum wage jobs and go onto in work benefit than lose their other benefits.

Again, typical race to the bottom of remainers. All these british citizens are so lazy, don't want to be worse off just for an employer to be able to pay their shareholders more money.

Maybe if we restrict the labour market slightly, salaries would start going up and people would be able to justify working those jobs.

Or have it your way, cut benefits and force people into work.

Remember we're all only a redundancy away from needing benefits.

[RYH64E]

blindswelledrat said:

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Agree completely, our long term unemployed are unemployable.

[XJ40]

RYH64E said:

blindswelledrat said:

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Agree completely, our long term unemployed are unemployable.

This group are more of an issue than immigrants IMO, the majority of whom are relatively hard working and making a contribution to the economy.

[John145]

XJ40 said:

RYH64E said:

blindswelledrat said:

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Agree completely, our long term unemployed are unemployable.

This group are more of an issue than immigrants IMO, the majority of whom are relatively hard working and making a contribution to the economy.

The way I see it you have only 2 options.

Cut benefit to force into workforce.

Show that work pays.

I know how a lot of the right wingers would prefer to see it (remainers).

[blindswelledrat]

John145 said:

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

Is, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Or, perhaps more likely, no one wants to work minimum wage jobs and go onto in work benefit than lose their other benefits.

Again, typical race to the bottom of remainers. All these british citizens are so lazy, don't want to be worse off just for an employer to be able to pay their shareholders more money.

Maybe if we restrict the labour market slightly, salaries would start going up and people would be able to justify working those jobs.

Or have it your way, cut benefits and force people into work.

Remember we're all only a redundancy away from needing benefits.

We now have an artificial wage in place which stops this, in case you hadn't noticed. £7.20 per hour is perfectly reasonable for a starting salary and it is a hell of a lot more than I, and most of the people on her, started on even allowing for inflation.
Literally any British person with half an ounce of effort will not remain on this low rate for very long.
I am sick of lefties like you (see, I can do it too) defending our workshy. People like you are the problem.
"Ooo, poor Bob. Cant get a job for more than £300 per week. Bloody foreigners. Send them back"

[John145]

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

Is, merely a fact that someone can take your job and claim benefits at the same time.

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Or, perhaps more likely, no one wants to work minimum wage jobs and go onto in work benefit than lose their other benefits.

Again, typical race to the bottom of remainers. All these british citizens are so lazy, don't want to be worse off just for an employer to be able to pay their shareholders more money.

Maybe if we restrict the labour market slightly, salaries would start going up and people would be able to justify working those jobs.

Or have it your way, cut benefits and force people into work.

Remember we're all only a redundancy away from needing benefits.

We now have an artificial wage in place which stops this, in case you hadn't noticed. £7.20 per hour is perfectly reasonable for a starting salary and it is a hell of a lot more than I, and most of the people on her, started on even allowing for inflation.
Literally any British person with half an ounce of effort will not remain on this low rate for very long.
I am sick of lefties like you (see, I can do it too) defending our workshy. People like you are the problem.
"Ooo, poor Bob. Cant get a job for more than £300 per week. Bloody foreigners. Send them back"

I lured you in and successfully managed to convert you from calling me extreme right wing to left wing. Loving it.

All unlimited unskilled work force does in take my tax money and give it to shareholders.


As a business owner let's say you have 2 people applying for a job. 1 of them is mid 20's and has had a number of jobs and the other has just left college and looking for their first job, both asking for the same salary. Easy peasy.

We need to take the option for employers to import enmasse which suppresses wages and forces our youth into long term unemployment. University is not right for everyone.

[RYH64E]

John145 said:

XJ40 said:

RYH64E said:

blindswelledrat said:

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Agree completely, our long term unemployed are unemployable.

This group are more of an issue than immigrants IMO, the majority of whom are relatively hard working and making a contribution to the economy.

The way I see it you have only 2 options.

Cut benefit to force into workforce.

Show that work pays.

I know how a lot of the right wingers would prefer to see it (remainers).

It isn't a case of work paying, unfortunately there's a section of the community who are completely unemployable. If you've never had the pleasure of employing such people it's hard to appreciate just how useless they are, and that's when they bother turning up, worse than useless in fact, disruptive. When I started running a business and employing people I had very liberal ideas about how to treat a workforce (the legacy of having a shop steward for a father and a teacher for a mother), unfortunately bitter experience has taught me the error of my ways, which isn't to say that good workers shouldn't be rewarded, they should be treated as the rare and precious resource that they are because there's an awful lot of dross out there. My last three new employees have been a Pole, a Lithuanian, and a Romainian, you'd be amazed at the difference in attitude compared to our local hillbillies, makes my life so much easier. And it isn't anything to do with money, I pay about £10/hr for unskilled staff in rural Suffolk which is well above the going rate, but find little if any correlation between the amount paid and the attitude of staff.

Edited by RYH64E on Tuesday 24th May 15:43

[John145]

RYH64E said:

It isn't a case of work paying, unfortunately there's a section of the community who are completely unemployable. If you've never had the pleasure of employing such people it's hard to appreciate just how useless they are, and that's when they bother turning up, worse than useless in fact, disruptive. When I started running a business and employing people I had very liberal ideas about how to treat a workforce (the legacy of having a shop steward for a father and a teacher for a mother), unfortunately bitter experience has taught me the error of my ways, which isn't to say that good workers shouldn't be rewarded, they should be treated as the rare and precious resource that they are because there's an awful lot of dross out there. My last three new employees have been a Pole, a Lithuanian, and a Romainian, you'd be amazed at the difference in attitude compared to our local hillbillies, makes my life so much easier.

What working in Spain has taught me is that if you want to keep the best employees, it's possible. Service sector workers who've been employed for years at the same restaurant, hotel, etc.

[Puggit]

RYH64E said:

It isn't a case of work paying, unfortunately there's a section of the community who are completely unemployable. If you've never had the pleasure of employing such people it's hard to appreciate just how useless they are, and that's when they bother turning up, worse than useless in fact, disruptive. When I started running a business and employing people I had very liberal ideas about how to treat a workforce (the legacy of having a shop steward for a father and a teacher for a mother), unfortunately bitter experience has taught me the error of my ways, which isn't to say that good workers shouldn't be rewarded, they should be treated as the rare and precious resource that they are because there's an awful lot of dross out there. My last three new employees have been a Pole, a Lithuanian, and a Romainian, you'd be amazed at the difference in attitude compared to our local hillbillies, makes my life so much easier. And it isn't anything to do with money, I pay about £10/hr for unskilled staff in rural Suffolk which is well above the going rate, but find little if any correlation between the amount paid and the attitude of staff.

This is where conscription would help, of course. It would take these British slackers and train them while giving them some self-worth.

Of course, that would be against their human rights

[blindswelledrat]

John145 said:

I lured you in and successfully managed to convert you from calling me extreme right wing to left wing. Loving it.

Because you are. You argue both extremes where it suits your anti-foreigner argument. Pretending you deliberately "lured" me into doing that is both untrue and a little embarrassing.

John said:

All unlimited unskilled work force does in take my tax money and give it to shareholders.

The system doesn't 'give it to shareholders'. That shows an extremely poor understanding of basic economics. ALmost every industry in the UK is extremely competitive as we, as consumers, demand it. So Tesco isn't more profitable because of cheap labour because Asda, Sainsbury, Aldi and Morrisons will not allow this, as has been well publicised. It is US the consumer and our relentless demand for cheapness that are the beneficiaries of this artificial tax credit nonsense, and us who are also paying it with our tax. IN fact there are actually no beneficiaries as we take with one hand and give it back with the other.

[RYH64E]

John145 said:

What working in Spain has taught me is that if you want to keep the best employees, it's possible. Service sector workers who've been employed for years at the same restaurant, hotel, etc.

No argument there, it's what to do with the worst employees that's the question. Paying them more money doesn't make them any better, even for free they're not worth employing, so what to do? Plan A is to leave them at home on benefits and employ hard working, conscientous, tax paying, East European immigrants who have taken advantage of the EU's free movement of labour policy and travelled here to work...

[fido]

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

I lured you in and successfully managed to convert you from calling me extreme right wing to left wing. Loving it.

Because you are. You argue both extremes where it suits your anti-foreigner argument. Pretending you deliberately "lured" me into doing that is both untrue and a little embarrassing.

To be fair, you've also used an extreme argument to suit your argument as well!
I think most sensible people will argue that sensible immigration is either necessary or highly desirable.
You are also correct that there are some bone-idle Brits who short of flogging won't do any useful work - that's true of many developed countries. But to defend an influx of 300k per annum because of 'lazy Brits; is an equally extreme/ridiculous position as well. You wouldn't want to have your wages considerably lowered e.g. 25% so why wish it on other people. There is a sensible balance between both extremes. And I don't think £7.20 per hour will cut it in London - especially if you have dependants. It's called a minimum wage for a reason.

Edited by fido on Tuesday 24th May 16:14

[John145]

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

I lured you in and successfully managed to convert you from calling me extreme right wing to left wing. Loving it.

Because you are. You argue both extremes where it suits your anti-foreigner argument. Pretending you deliberately "lured" me into doing that is both untrue and a little embarrassing.

John said:

All unlimited unskilled work force does in take my tax money and give it to shareholders.

The system doesn't 'give it to shareholders'. That shows an extremely poor understanding of basic economics. ALmost every industry in the UK is extremely competitive as we, as consumers, demand it. So Tesco isn't more profitable because of cheap labour because Asda, Sainsbury, Aldi and Morrisons will not allow this, as has been well publicised. It is US the consumer and our relentless demand for cheapness that are the beneficiaries of this artificial tax credit nonsense, and us who are also paying it with our tax. IN fact there are actually no beneficiaries as we take with one hand and give it back with the other.

Low salaries topped up by tax credits > tax payers money going to shareholders. Is this basic economics or advanced? I don't care, it's true all the same.

Unlimited supply lowers value > more money in shareholders pockets.

[crankedup]

RYH64E said:

John145 said:

XJ40 said:

RYH64E said:

blindswelledrat said:

Only if you are so fking useless that someone would rather employ a foreigner with language problems than you.
I have long maintained that the UK unemployed are unemployable.
They are not 'taking jobs' from our unemployed, they are doing the jobs that we wont do.

Agree completely, our long term unemployed are unemployable.

This group are more of an issue than immigrants IMO, the majority of whom are relatively hard working and making a contribution to the economy.

The way I see it you have only 2 options.

Cut benefit to force into workforce.

Show that work pays.

I know how a lot of the right wingers would prefer to see it (remainers).

It isn't a case of work paying, unfortunately there's a section of the community who are completely unemployable. If you've never had the pleasure of employing such people it's hard to appreciate just how useless they are, and that's when they bother turning up, worse than useless in fact, disruptive. When I started running a business and employing people I had very liberal ideas about how to treat a workforce (the legacy of having a shop steward for a father and a teacher for a mother), unfortunately bitter experience has taught me the error of my ways, which isn't to say that good workers shouldn't be rewarded, they should be treated as the rare and precious resource that they are because there's an awful lot of dross out there. My last three new employees have been a Pole, a Lithuanian, and a Romainian, you'd be amazed at the difference in attitude compared to our local hillbillies, makes my life so much easier. And it isn't anything to do with money, I pay about £10/hr for unskilled staff in rural Suffolk which is well above the going rate, but find little if any correlation between the amount paid and the attitude of staff.

Edited by RYH64E on Tuesday 24th May 15:43

Our lad needed to clear the garden of his BTL , full of rubble from years of previous owners dumping at the back of the garden. Needless to say I was roped in to help, we hired a mini digger and motorised wheelbarrow to shift around 35 tons from the back to the front of the property. Ready for a grab Lorry. He also hired a young fella he knows, unemployed and struggling. Set him off with a task of digging a small trench whilst we carried on with the removal of rubbish. Half hour passes and I notice our young fella is dossing around with a football, your here to work so get on with it, after all he was being paid £10 hour. Advised my lad about the situation, half hour later young fella is playing keepy uppy again!!!
Young fella had the chance to earn good money from a job which would last a few weeks, and the lad simply took the piss. Naturally young fella was shown the exit door sharpish.

Like you say, it's down to attitude and work ethics, how could a young person end up with the 'couldn't care less attitude'.
I will leave you to guess Nationality of young fella!!!

Edited by crankedup on Tuesday 24th May 16:30

[crankedup]

Puggit said:

RYH64E said:

It isn't a case of work paying, unfortunately there's a section of the community who are completely unemployable. If you've never had the pleasure of employing such people it's hard to appreciate just how useless they are, and that's when they bother turning up, worse than useless in fact, disruptive. When I started running a business and employing people I had very liberal ideas about how to treat a workforce (the legacy of having a shop steward for a father and a teacher for a mother), unfortunately bitter experience has taught me the error of my ways, which isn't to say that good workers shouldn't be rewarded, they should be treated as the rare and precious resource that they are because there's an awful lot of dross out there. My last three new employees have been a Pole, a Lithuanian, and a Romainian, you'd be amazed at the difference in attitude compared to our local hillbillies, makes my life so much easier. And it isn't anything to do with money, I pay about £10/hr for unskilled staff in rural Suffolk which is well above the going rate, but find little if any correlation between the amount paid and the attitude of staff.

This is where conscription would help, of course. It would take these British slackers and train them while giving them some self-worth.

Of course, that would be against their human rights

I have long said exactly the same thing.

[crankedup]

blindswelledrat said:

John145 said:

I lured you in and successfully managed to convert you from calling me extreme right wing to left wing. Loving it.

Because you are. You argue both extremes where it suits your anti-foreigner argument. Pretending you deliberately "lured" me into doing that is both untrue and a little embarrassing.

John said:

All unlimited unskilled work force does in take my tax money and give it to shareholders.

The system doesn't 'give it to shareholders'. That shows an extremely poor understanding of basic economics. ALmost every industry in the UK is extremely competitive as we, as consumers, demand it. So Tesco isn't more profitable because of cheap labour because Asda, Sainsbury, Aldi and Morrisons will not allow this, as has been well publicised. It is US the consumer and our relentless demand for cheapness that are the beneficiaries of this artificial tax credit nonsense, and us who are also paying it with our tax. IN fact there are actually no beneficiaries as we take with one hand and give it back with the other.

My politics are akin to Champagne Socialism as some have described me over the years. Prosecco Socialism might be closer to the truth.
But I agree, we should not be resorting to in work benefits for many obvious reasons, one of which it stifles in work personal development. If I am offered an upgrade I will lose my benifits and be worse off syndrome